1 1 May 26, 2010 2 CHRISTOPHER BENNETT, affirmed. 3 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 9:33 A.M.) 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SOKHANSANJ: 5 1 Q Mr. Bennett, you're here to be cross-examined on 6 your affidavit sworn in this proceeding on 7 October 29, 2009? 8 A Yes, I believe so. 9 2 Q And before I start asking you questions about 10 the affidavit, I just want to ask you some 11 questions about the condition you're in today. 12 A M'mm-hmm. 13 3 Q Have you consumed any controlled substances 14 before coming here this morning? 15 A Yes, I have. 16 4 Q What have you consumed? 17 A I have consumed cannabis. 18 5 Q And how much and how. 19 A I vaporized a small amount prior to coming in. 20 6 Q All right. Describe, please, what "vaporized" 21 is? 22 A Vaporized is a heating method where no smoke is 23 produced. Hot air is blown on the cannabis and 24 it releases the cannabinoids into a vapor. 25 7 Q All right. And how much is a small amount? 2 1 A Oh, say like a third of a joint. 2 8 Q How much is that in grams, sir? 3 A Say a sixth of a gram, roughly. 4 9 Q A sixth of a gram. 5 A I'm guessing, you know, but ... 6 10 Q So a joint would be roughly, what, just over a 7 gram? 8 A A joint would be, no, I'd say about half of a 9 gram. 10 11 Q Half of a gram. So when you say it was -- 11 A A third of a joint. 12 12 Q A third of a joint? 13 A A sixth of a gram. 14 13 Q All right. Do you consider yourself fit to give 15 evidence today? 16 A I believe that I'm a very intellectual person. 17 In fact, I wrote my books under the influence of 18 cannabis. I've done numerous television 19 interviews, news interviews all under the 20 influence of cannabis, and cannabis serves as a 21 source of wisdom and inspiration for me. 22 14 Q Is cannabis something you consume so as to be in 23 a working state of mind then? 24 A Well, when I'm working on cannabis-related 25 things, yes. Like, my whole life is really 3 1 based around cannabis activism to a large 2 extent, so it keeps me focused on that path, 3 which is my spiritual path. 4 15 Q Are you planning on consuming more cannabis 5 later in the day today? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 16 Q Have you brought some with you to the exam? 8 A No, I haven't. 9 17 Q Are you planning on accessing it later in the 10 day today? 11 A After the examination is over, yes. 12 18 Q During the examination? 13 A No, I'm not. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, Mr. Tousaw, I'm obviously 15 uncomfortable examining somebody who has 16 admitted to being under the influence of a 17 substance that can affect the workings of his 18 mind. He claims to be fit. Are you comfortable 19 with your client giving evidence in this 20 condition? 21 MR. TOUSAW: Well, at least two of us around the 22 table are consuming substances that influence 23 the working of the mind in the form of caffeine, 24 and I assume that you're both fit, so I have no 25 problem with Mr. Bennett giving evidence. 4 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. Then we'll proceed on 2 that understanding that you have no difficulty 3 with him giving evidence in this condition 4 today. 5 19 Q Mr. Bennett, do you consider yourself generally 6 to be a truthful person? 7 A Yes. 8 20 Q All right. I'm going to show you your 9 affidavit. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And maybe this is a good time to 11 mark it as an exhibit to this cross-examination. 12 What we'll do, Mr. Tousaw, perhaps is mark 13 the affidavit without the exhibits attached for 14 the moment. 15 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: They're somewhat unwieldy. They are 17 two large books. 18 MR. TOUSAW: M'mm-hmm. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 20 21 Q So this is your affidavit sworn October 29th, 21 2009, in this proceeding. Is that your 22 signature there, sir, at the last page? 23 A It is, yes. 24 22 Q Yes. And you recognize this document as your 25 affidavit -- 5 1 A I do. 2 23 Q -- sworn in this proceeding? 3 And so you recognize this, then, as that 4 affidavit that you've sworn in this proceeding? 5 A Yes, I do. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Then let's mark it as Exhibit 1 to 7 the cross-examination. 8 EXHIBIT 1: Affidavit of Christopher Bennett 9 sworn October 29, 2009 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 11 24 Q Mr. Bennett, I was beginning to ask you whether 12 you consider yourself a truthful person. Do 13 you? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 25 Q And did you tell the truth in your affidavit? 16 A Yes, I believe I did. 17 26 Q Have you reviewed your affidavit before coming 18 for today's cross-examination? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 27 Q And having reviewed it, are you still satisfied 21 that it's the truth? 22 A Yes, I do -- am. Sorry. 23 28 Q I see in paragraph 20 of your affidavit you 24 refer to having spoken on the subject, by which 25 I take you to mean cannabis, is that correct, 6 1 the subject -- 2 A Yes. 3 29 Q -- in numerous television and radio interviews 4 as well as to the print media? 5 A M'mm-hmm. 6 MR. TOUSAW: You have to say yes. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 30 Q You have to say yes or no for the record. 9 A Oh. Yeah. Sorry. Yes, I do. Sorry. 10 31 Q Thank you. 11 Did you tell the truth when you spoke with 12 the print media and in numerous television and 13 radio interviews? 14 A Yes, I believe I have. 15 32 Q You also say you have given lectures on the 16 topic of religious -- 17 MR. TOUSAW: Let me stop you because I will interpose 18 an objection there. It's a fairly broad 19 question. I'm not sure the witness is in a 20 position to answer about every interview that he 21 has ever done in his some 20 years of activism, 22 but I'm not going to direct him not to answer 23 the question. 24 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Sure. 25 33 Q Have there been instances looking back where you 7 1 can explicitly say that you recall not having 2 told the truth in such an interview? 3 A Well, I can't recall not telling the truth, but 4 it's been 20 years, and things have changed. 5 Maybe it was the truth at the time, but 6 conditions have changed and belief systems have 7 changed and things have changed over that 8 20-year period. As with anybody, things change, 9 you know. 10 So when we're talking about everything that 11 I've ever written, there's things in my books, 12 in my first book, that I definitely don't hold 13 to now in my later books because I've come 14 across more information and more knowledge, and 15 ideas change and adapt, my -- my world views and 16 evolving world views. 17 So perhaps at some point I've said 18 something that was true at that time but may not 19 be true now. 20 34 Q So by your first book you mean the book called 21 Green Gold -- 22 A Green Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic 23 & Religion. 24 MR. TOUSAW: You're going to have to let her finish 25 the question before you begin your answer. Take 8 1 a little pause if you need to. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Sorry. 3 MR. TOUSAW: That also gives me an opportunity to 4 digest the question -- 5 THE WITNESS: Right. Right. 6 MR. TOUSAW: -- because I'm perhaps not as quick as 7 you. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 9 35 Q I have a photocopy -- 10 A M'mm-hmm. 11 36 Q -- of the book here. I will hand it to you, and 12 you can have a look through and tell me whether 13 that is in fact your book Green ... 14 A Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic & 15 Religion. 16 37 Q Yes, whether it is that book. 17 A This appears to be a photocopy of Green Gold the 18 Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic & Religion. I 19 haven't had the -- you know, I won't be able to 20 read the whole book and verify that nothing has 21 been added, but as far as I can tell it does 22 appear to be a copy of that book, yes. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, why don't we mark it as an 24 exhibit. I guess we're at Exhibit 2 to the 25 cross-examination. 9 1 EXHIBIT 2: Photocopy of book entitled Green 2 Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic & 3 Religion 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 5 38 Q Now, you were beginning to tell me that there 6 are statements made in this book that you no 7 longer feel are the truth? 8 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. I don't think that 9 that's necessarily properly characterizes the 10 witness's answer to the question. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Why don't we read back his answer, 12 Madam Reporter. Can you read back the answer 13 before we got to identifying the exhibit, Green 14 Gold the Tree of Life. 15 MR. TOUSAW: And just for purposes of clarity, my 16 objection is I think the witness said that there 17 may be things that he has written in the past. 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: No, that's fair enough. That why I 19 want it read back. 20 (COURT REPORTER PLAYED BACK ANSWER TO QUESTION 21 33) 22 THE WITNESS: I did say that. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I don't want to ask over and over 24 again. 25 MR. TOUSAW: So I think what the witness said is that 10 1 there are beliefs -- 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: There are things in my book -- 3 MR. TOUSAW: -- things in his book -- 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- book that I definitely don't 5 hold -- 6 MR. TOUSAW: -- beliefs that he doesn't -- 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: He didn't say beliefs. He said 8 there are things in my book that I definitely 9 don't hold to now. 10 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. That's right, which is different 11 from saying things that were untrue, which is 12 your question. 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And that's fair enough. 14 39 Q And now I'm about to ask him, Mr. Bennett, what 15 are the things in your book to which you do not 16 hold now? 17 A Well, I should point out that there's two other 18 authors involved with the book, so some of the 19 material in there is not my material, but one of 20 the main things that comes to mind is the view 21 on soma in that book, a subject which I've 22 revisited in my latest book. 23 In that book I went with the other 24 co-authors' view that soma may be the amanita 25 muscaria mushroom, but as I have discovered 11 1 through much later research and much more 2 extensive research, that that's not the case, 3 that soma was in fact a preparation of cannabis. 4 40 Q And this was something of a controversy, I take 5 it, which is an issue that you address in your 6 most recent writing, which is attached as 7 Exhibit B to your affidavit, Cannabis and the 8 Soma Solution? 9 A Yes, that's correct. 10 MR. TOUSAW: Thank you very much. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 12 41 Q Is there anything else in Green Gold -- 13 A Well, it's been a while since I've read Green 14 Gold the Tree of Life -- sorry. 15 42 Q I haven't quite finished my question, sir. 16 Is there anything else in Green Gold to 17 which you would not hold today? 18 A Well, I can't really say. It's been a while 19 since I've read completely Green Gold the Tree 20 of Life: Marijuana in Magic & Religion, but 21 yeah, for the most part it's a pretty solid 22 source of information. 23 You know, I suppose one thing would be 24 Native American use. I went with a view that 25 there may be evidence of Native American use 12 1 prior to the arrival of Caucasian people. I 2 don't really think that's the case now. I think 3 that most of that was due to lack of, you know, 4 good botanical knowledge, the identification of 5 cannabis here prior and that cannabis came to 6 the new world via settlers and old world 7 travellers. 8 43 Q And these two examples you have given me of 9 things to which you no longer hold that are in 10 the Green Gold book, these are not examples of 11 your personal beliefs but of the results of your 12 research as to the historical use of cannabis; 13 is that right? 14 A No. Soma has to do a lot with my personal 15 beliefs and my religious beliefs of cannabis, a 16 whole lot, yeah. It's like really important. 17 It's wound right up with the tree of life. 18 You know, it's the tree of life for the 19 healing of the nations, I want to be clear of 20 that, and this includes all the nations of the 21 earth where cannabis has been used for spiritual 22 purposes, so my belief regarding this book here, 23 the purpose of this book, was to identify the 24 spiritual, medicinal role of cannabis in a 25 variety of religions around the world and 13 1 document that because it's the tree of life for 2 the healing of the nations. 3 44 Q What I'm asking is earlier your lawyer objected 4 and clarified that your answer as to whether you 5 hold to the statements that are in the Green 6 Gold book spoke to your personal beliefs, and I 7 just want to clarify that those include not just 8 your personal religious beliefs but moreover the 9 results of your research in terms of the history 10 of cannabis. 11 A Yes. Well, I want to be clear that my religious 12 beliefs -- the Church of the Universe is a 13 gnostic religion. "Gnostic" means knowledge. 14 We're more of a religion of knowledge than 15 faith. You know, you could have faith that 16 cannabis is the tree of life and leave it at 17 that, but my belief in the tree of life as my 18 religious belief is based more than just -- upon 19 more than just faith. It's based upon 20 historical knowledge and reality. 21 The tree of life isn't just the tree of 22 life for me because I believe that. It's the 23 real tree of life from the Book of Revelation 24 appearing at this time, the time of the 25 apocalypse, and that is for everybody, for you 14 1 and everybody. That's a truth that holds, and 2 that historical information is the validity of 3 my truth. 4 Like perhaps say if Christians could 5 produce an actual miracle as evidence of the 6 divine, the tree of life is the miracle of my 7 religion. 8 45 Q So this book includes not only references to 9 spiritual uses of cannabis, but also you were 10 saying medicinal uses of cannabis? 11 A It's the tree of life for the healing of the 12 nation. As I state in my affidavit, the healing 13 qualities of cannabis are interwound with the 14 spiritual experience of cannabis, and it's a 15 whole part and parcel of the same thing, as with 16 the industrial and food applications of 17 cannabis. 18 46 Q All right. So the -- oh, sorry, I didn't mean 19 to cut you off there. 20 A Yeah. Well, it's the tree of life. Let me go 21 over the tree of life. Revelations 22 says on 22 either side of the river of life stood the tree 23 of life bearing 12 manners of fruit yielding its 24 fruit each month and the leaves of the tree are 25 for the healing of the nations. 15 1 47 Q M'mm-hmm. 2 A Now, those -- what this refers to is the river 3 of life is the history of life, the history of 4 humanity, and on either side of that great 5 history of life, going back to the earliest 6 times, it's thought that cannabis use first 7 occurs during the period of the great leap 8 forward of humanity when things like the wheel 9 and fire were discovered and that cannabis may 10 have played a role, as the receptors for 11 cannabinoids are in the areas of higher thinking 12 and memory, and it may have played a role in 13 evolutionizing consciousness and presenting 14 ideas, novel ideas, new ways of looking at 15 things, that deeply affected humanity. 16 So when we go back to the earliest 17 archeological evidence, it's indicative of 18 spiritual use, and then all through history, 19 from the very earliest religions, cannabis use 20 is the fount from whole religions have sprung 21 from, and this includes Judaism, Hinduism, 22 Islam, all these religions have sprouted from 23 cannabis, Taoism in China, even Buddhism. All 24 these religions are related to the cannabis 25 experience and originate in some way via the 16 1 cannabis plant, and so this is all part of that 2 stream of human history. 3 And then we talk about the 12 manners of 4 fruit of the tree of life. This is things like 5 the ability for cannabis to produce petro-like 6 fuels, you know, so we can move away from things 7 like harmful petroleums which are causing wars 8 in the Middle East or perhaps destroying the 9 whole Atlantic Ocean through deep-well drilling. 10 We can replace all that with cannabis. We can 11 move away from soil-depleting cotton. 12 50 percent of the chemicals and pesticides used 13 in agriculture -- 14 MR. TOUSAW: You've got to slow down again. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 16 A -- are used on cotton. We can grow hemp 17 organically and move away from all that. 18 We can feed the world's hungry with the 19 cannabis seed. The cannabis seed is the most 20 digestible source of protein known to man, rich 21 in omega oils, life-giving oils essential for 22 human health, and when you grow the cannabis 23 plant for seed, half of the weight of the plant 24 is produced in seed. 25 So many of these things are the manners of 17 1 fruit. There's much more than 12 manners of 2 fruit in the case of cannabis. It's such a 3 useful plant. 4 And when we speak about the healing of the 5 nations we're speaking about the conundrum of 6 organized religion and what it's doing to the 7 world and how it's ripping it apart. Cannabis 8 is the alpha and omega of religion, the 9 beginning and the end of organized religion in 10 many ways. 11 And we are also talking about this sick 12 world, and many of the ailments nowadays that 13 people face may be due to cannabinoid 14 deficiencies they're starting to find out. 15 Things like Crohn's Disease, for instance, are 16 thought to be due to lack of cannabinoids. It's 17 been shown that use of cannabis can prevent 18 things like Alzheimer's, and this is all due to 19 the indigenous endo-cannabinoids in their body 20 and a lack of those which can be replaced 21 through vegetable use of cannabis, through 22 ingesting cannabis and its antioxidant 23 properties. 24 Cannabis is a life-giving, life-preserving 25 plant. The oldest woman who ever lived in fact, 18 1 Fulla Nayak, used cannabis every day, and she 2 attributed her 127-year-old lifespan due to the 3 use of cannabis directly, and this is something 4 referred to in the ancient religions as well, 5 particularly plants like soma, which is referred 6 to as a plant of immortality. 7 And this is the same way the Taoist 8 referred to cannabis 2,700 years ago -- I mean 9 2,700 BC. The first emperor of China, Shen 10 Nung, who was also an expert in medicinal 11 plants, named cannabis one of the superior 12 elixirs of immortality because of its 13 life-giving, live-preserving qualities. 14 The US government has come to recognize 15 this as well, actually patenting cannabis's 16 antioxidant properties. So this is something 17 that is well known about cannabis. 18 And then there is this whole spiritual 19 element of cannabis as well, and this goes back 20 to the earliest religions as well with figures 21 like Moses, Zarathustra, Jesus, Solomon, perhaps 22 Mohammed, Count Pythagorus, countless historical 23 figures that can be tied to the use of cannabis, 24 inspirational figures that have influenced human 25 history beyond the typical realm. 19 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 2 48 Q All right. And just coming back to your book 3 Green Gold, it covers many of these fruits of 4 cannabis -- 5 A Yes. 6 49 Q -- and discusses the use of cannabis as an 7 alternative fuel, discusses the nutritional 8 properties of cannabis, and you hold to the 9 truths of those fruits, don't you? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 50 Q Can you tell me who Professor Moonbeam is? I 12 just noticed there's a chapter by 13 Professor Moonbeam in the book. 14 A I believe that's a pseudonym for Lynn Osburn, 15 the co-author. 16 51 Q Did you review each other's work before the book 17 was published? 18 A Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that book came out 19 over 15 years ago, but yeah, before it was 20 published I read it, and I'm, you know, pretty 21 familiar with what's in there, I think, still. 22 I think it's -- you know, the ability to 23 research at that time was limited due to the 24 infancy of the internet. 25 52 Q The internet has made a significant difference 20 1 to your ability to research and to promulgate 2 your views, hasn't it? 3 A Yes, it has. You know, things like Google Books 4 enables an individual to do a word search in 5 10 libraries' worth of books in a single 6 instance, as before it was all accessing books, 7 acquiring them from libraries, purchasing them 8 and stuff like that, which made research 9 somewhat slower. 10 53 Q And it's also impacted your ability to 11 promulgate or to share your views with others? 12 A Yes. I'm sure as you found out my views have 13 spread all over the internet. There are 14 cannabis churches worldwide based largely upon 15 elements of my research. 16 54 Q Quite apart from that, you also have an active 17 internet blog, do you? 18 A I do, cannabisculture.com. I have a blog on 19 there as well. 20 55 Q All right. So cannabisculture.com is a website? 21 A Yes, it is. 22 56 Q And is that a blog that you're maintaining at 23 this point in time? 24 A I haven't posted anything for about a month or 25 something, but I'm sure I'll post something 21 1 again, yes. 2 57 Q And when did you start posting to that blog? 3 A Oh, I think probably about a year ago, but 4 I'm -- you know, I'm not absolutely sure on 5 that. You know, I don't think it's more than a 6 year ago. A year or less, I'm assuming. 7 58 Q I'm going to ask you some questions about your 8 background. 9 A M'mm-hmm. 10 59 Q Now, you were born in 1962. What was the date? 11 A August 28th. 12 60 Q 1962? 13 A Yes, that's right. 14 61 Q Are you married? 15 A I'm separated. 16 62 Q You're separated from Tracy Chester? 17 A No. I was married to Tracy Chester. I've been 18 divorced from her since about, I don't know, 19 2001 I believe. I am currently married and 20 separated from Renee Danielle Boje. 21 63 Q Can you spell that for the reporter? 22 A R-e-n-e-e D-a-n-i-e-l-l-e B-o-j-e. 23 64 Q Do you have children? 24 A Yes. Yes, I do. 25 65 Q How many? 22 1 A I have one child. 2 66 Q And that's a son? 3 A Yes. 4 67 Q How old is he? 5 A He's 8 years old. 6 68 Q 8 years old. 7 Is he Ms. Chester's son or Ms. Boje's? 8 A Ms. Boje's. 9 69 Q Ms. Boje's. Does he live with you? 10 A He lives with me four days of the week. 11 70 Q Did he live with you prior to your separation 12 from Ms. Boje? 13 A Yes, he did. 14 71 Q All the three of you lived together, I take it? 15 A Yes. Yes, we did. 16 72 Q You and Ms. Boje don't live in the same 17 residence anymore, do you? 18 A No, we do not. 19 73 Q And is your residence number 3 - 1943 Charles 20 Street in Vancouver? 21 A Yes, that's correct. 22 74 Q Let me just back up. You may have told me this, 23 and I'm sorry if I have forgotten, but when did 24 you separate from Ms. Boje? 25 A That was October of 2007, I believe, yeah, 23 1 October. No, October of 2006. 2 75 Q And when were you married? 3 A That would've been in December of 2001. 2001, I 4 think, yeah. Possibly 2002. 5 76 Q Right. Shortly after your divorce in any event? 6 A When we were married? 7 77 Q No, no, your divorce from Ms. Chester. 8 A Oh. Yeah, shortly after my divorce from 9 Ms. Chester, yeah. 10 78 Q Okay. So you were telling me that you live in 11 number 3 - 1943 Charles Street in Vancouver. 12 Can you describe that residence? Is it a house, 13 an apartment? 14 A It's a house. 15 MR. TOUSAW: I'll just stop you. I'm going to 16 interpose a relevance objection. I don't think 17 it's got anything to do with his affidavit, but 18 I'm not going to direct him not to answer the 19 question. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, if he's going to answer the 21 question, that's terrific. I think it's 22 relevant. He certainly speaks to the 23 circumstances of his residence in his affidavit. 24 MR. TOUSAW: Yeah. 25 A Yeah, I live in the ground floor of a house with 24 1 two other suites above it. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 3 79 Q All right. So the two other suites above you, 4 are those people that you're friends with or 5 family with that live up there? 6 A No. They're -- 7 MR. TOUSAW: That's another relevance objection. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Are you going to ask him not to 9 answer the question -- 10 MR. TOUSAW: No. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- or are we just going to march 12 forward? 13 MR. TOUSAW: No. Just as long as you can agree that 14 the objection is preserved, I'm content to have 15 him answer the question. 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 17 80 Q All right. 18 A There are other people that I, you know, I know 19 a little bit just because they live there. 20 81 Q All right. Do they have children? 21 A No, they do not. 22 82 Q Inside your -- so it's a ground floor apartment? 23 A M'mm-hmm. 24 83 Q Inside your apartment how many rooms are there? 25 A There's two bedrooms, a living-room, a small 25 1 office space, a kitchen and a bathroom. 2 84 Q And of those rooms, which is the one that you're 3 proposing in your affidavit to use as a 4 production facility? 5 A I'll probably use my storage room, which isn't 6 connected directly with my apartment. 7 85 Q Where is that? 8 A That's in the back side of the house. 9 86 Q What do you mean by that? Can you just describe 10 the layout, please? 11 A It's like a, I don't know, say, 8 by 10 room 12 roughly, you know. I can't swear to that. And 13 it locks properly, and so it's in the back 14 attached to the building in the building itself 15 with no entrance except for one well-locked 16 entrance. 17 87 Q Is that formerly a garage space? Is it that 18 kind of space? 19 A Yeah, it's like a storage room/garage-type 20 thing. 21 88 Q Okay. Does it have a garage door, a rolling 22 garage door? 23 A No, it does not. It has a regular locking door. 24 89 Q So like the front door of a house? 25 A Yes, like the front door of a house. 26 1 90 Q And what kind of lock does it have? 2 A It has a -- what do you call the ones that turn 3 like -- dead-bolt, I guess, is the word, a 4 dead-bolt lock, I think. 5 91 Q You're not sure of the kind of lock? 6 A Well, I don't know the name of it. It's like 7 the type that click with a bar that goes into 8 the door. 9 92 Q You use a key to open and close it? 10 A Yeah. 11 93 Q Who has the key? 12 A I do. 13 94 Q Do you have the only key? 14 A As far as I know, yes. 15 95 Q Inside the -- 16 A My landlord may have a key. Sorry, I should 17 amend that. My landlord may have a key. 18 96 Q You rent the home? 19 A Yeah, I rent the home. 20 97 Q All right. Who is your landlord? 21 A Mia Brown. 22 98 Q All right. Is that somebody associated or 23 affiliated with the Church of the Universe? 24 A No, she is not. 25 99 Q Is that somebody associated or affiliated with, 27 1 was it called cannabisculture.com? 2 A No, it is not. 3 100 Q Does she know that you use cannabis? 4 A Yes, she does. 5 101 Q Does she know about your plans to produce 6 cannabis in the storage room? 7 A I haven't discussed that with her at this point. 8 102 Q Are you planning on discussing it with her? 9 A Yes, when it becomes relevant. 10 103 Q In your affidavit you describe your intention to 11 store marihuana in a locked container. 12 A M'mm-hmm. 13 104 Q What do you mean by "marihuana"? 14 A I mean the sacrament, the tree of life, 15 cannabis. 16 105 Q Can you be more specific? Like the entire plant 17 in a plant pot? 18 A Oh. No, no, no. I mean dried and cured flowers 19 of cannabis, the tree of life. 20 106 Q So the cured flowers will be stored in this 21 locked container? 22 A Yes. 23 107 Q What kind of container are you talking about? 24 What does it look like? 25 A I'm just -- I haven't purchased one for this 28 1 particular purpose at this time, but I'm just 2 thinking something -- a metal box with a lock on 3 it, a padlock. 4 108 Q How big? 5 A Oh, I don't know, say a foot by -- 1 foot by 6 8 inches tall. 7 109 Q And where will you keep that box? 8 A I will keep that locked up in my bigger bureau. 9 I have a big bureau that has an ability to lock 10 both doors. 11 110 Q Like a wardrobe where you would store clothing? 12 A Yeah. It's like a Chinese wardrobe, but it has 13 the ability to be locked. 14 111 Q And that's in your bedroom? 15 A Yes. 16 112 Q In your home? 17 A Yes. 18 113 Q In your affidavit you talk about planning to 19 produce the cannabis entirely indoors, and you 20 told me about the logistics of your proposed 21 production site. 22 A M'mm-hmm. 23 114 Q How do you plan to produce the cannabis? 24 A Oh, I would probably use metal halide lights on 25 a timer, growing the plants themselves in dirt, 29 1 in buckets of dirt, and then have proper 2 ventilation and that sort of thing put in there. 3 115 Q Is this something you've done before? 4 A Yes, it is. 5 116 Q When did you do this last? 6 A I did this probably from about 1985 to 1998. 7 117 Q Till 1998? 8 A Yeah. 9 118 Q Why did you stop? 10 A Well, I split up with my wife and moved out of 11 my home. I did grow -- I moved onto a boat. I 12 did grow a couple of small crops of cannabis on 13 that boat, and then when I moved to Vancouver to 14 work for Pot-TV, for Marc Emery, I didn't 15 continue to grow there, and then when I became 16 engaged to Renee Boje and she became pregnant, 17 we decided that it was not a good idea to grow 18 cannabis because of the threat to her legal 19 situation. She was under a great deal of 20 political and legal pressure through her own 21 case and extradition proceedings. 22 And as with a child, you know, there's just 23 the threat of having my child seized by family 24 authorities for having cannabis growing in the 25 home as opposed to the cost of purchasing it on 30 1 the black market. Seemed to be more prudent to 2 purchase it on the black market than produce it 3 myself. 4 119 Q And that's what you've been doing since 1998, 5 purchasing it? 6 A That's correct, yes. 7 120 Q Does the storage room that you have described as 8 going to be your production site have windows? 9 A No, it doesn't. 10 121 Q Now, your affidavit also talks about the 11 cannabis -- let me just take a step back. 12 How many plants were you contemplating? 13 A I'd probably grow about eight plants, I think. 14 122 Q Do you think eight plants would be sufficient to 15 meet your stated usage of 7 grams a day? 16 A Yeah, I think so, from my experience growing 17 cannabis, sure. Eight big, healthy plants. 18 123 Q So it's emphasis on the big? 19 A You know, not -- not, you know, not -- not as 20 big as you might think. You know, that amount 21 of cannabis isn't really all that much. 22 Eight plants should be able to produce that with 23 just average typical-sized grow plants, I would 24 think. 25 124 Q When you harvest is the plant good for another 31 1 harvest? 2 A You can do that. I prefer not to because the 3 qualities of the second run of the cannabis 4 isn't as good quality as the first run. 5 125 Q All right. So you would be doing rolling 6 planting; correct? 7 A Yes. 8 126 Q All right. So at any -- 9 A So I would have eight plants flowering, to be 10 clear, and then eight plants in a vegetative 11 process, small little tiny plants like this that 12 would be in the rooting process. 13 127 Q Right. And presumably you'd also have some 14 seedlings just started? 15 A Well, I would probably grow from clones. That's 16 more the standard way to grow than from seeds 17 because it eliminates a great deal of time, so I 18 would probably take clones off the plants before 19 flowering them. 20 128 Q All right. 21 A And then they would root over the six, 22 seven weeks that it takes to flower cannabis. 23 129 Q Right. So the eight plants to which you refer, 24 how many days' worth of cannabis would that be? 25 MR. TOUSAW: I'm just going to interpose an objection 32 1 that, one, I'm not sure how relevant this is 2 given the denial of Mr. Bennett's request; two, 3 it calls for speculation; and three, you're sort 4 of asking a question about the vagaries of 5 gardening, which I don't know if this witness is 6 qualified to answer or not, but I'm going to 7 allow him to answer the question. 8 A I think that would be enough for about 9 four months' worth of cannabis. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 11 130 Q Are you sure about that? 12 A I'm not sure. No, I'd have to do some math, you 13 know. We could probably do that math here if 14 you require an answer. 15 Each day I'm asking for a quarter ounce, so 16 every four days would be an ounce. 7 ounces -- 17 I guess 4 into 30, 15, so that would be 18 15 ounces -- no. Is that right? 4 goes -- 19 131 Q I don't know, Mr. Bennett. Arithmetic is not my 20 strong suit. 21 MR. TOUSAW: 7 grams a day is about 210 grams a 22 month, which is about a half a pound a month. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah, sure. 24 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 25 A Yeah, I think that four months in that amount 33 1 would be pretty reasonable. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 3 132 Q All right. Your affidavit also describes the 4 cannabis you use being kept on your person at 5 all times. So that's your 7 grams? 6 A M'mm-hmm. 7 133 Q Right. In what form do you plan to keep it on 8 your person? 9 A I usually have a container with me that closes 10 tightly, an airtight container, that has some 11 loose buds of cannabis in it. 12 134 Q By "container" do you mean a baggy or plastic 13 Tupperware -- 14 A Usually I'll use a metal container -- 15 MR. TOUSAW: Let her -- 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'm not quite finished. 17 135 Q -- plastic Tupperware, a metal container? 18 A Usually I use a stainless steel metal tube-like 19 container with a glass top on it. 20 136 Q Is it lockable? 21 A No, it is not, but it's on my person, so it 22 would be hard to access for anybody else. 23 137 Q Where is it on your person? 24 A Well, I don't have it with me right now. 25 138 Q No, no, not right now. Where do you usually 34 1 keep it on your person? 2 A I usually keep it in my jacket pocket, sometimes 3 my knapsack. 4 139 Q I think you said this, but you don't have it in 5 your jacket pocket or knapsack today? 6 A I do not. I specifically left it at home for 7 this rare occasion. 8 140 Q All right. So tell me about your education. Do 9 you have a high school diploma? 10 A No, I don't. 11 141 Q How far did you get in high school? 12 A I think I've only completed grade 10, to tell 13 you the truth. I went through grade 11, but I 14 don't know if I got enough credits for that. 15 142 Q Where did you do your high school? 16 A I did -- I finished it in Port Alberni, but I 17 also took some junior high school here in 18 Vancouver in a couple of different places. 19 143 Q You're from British Columbia? 20 A I'm from British Columbia, yes. 21 144 Q All right. And you didn't have a religious 22 education or? 23 A No, I did not. 24 145 Q You didn't go to any kind of parochial school? 25 A No, I did not. 35 1 146 Q No. Your family didn't send you to religious 2 schooling on the weekends? 3 A I think I went to maybe Sunday school three or 4 four times as a youth and other church 5 occasions, you know, just a few times really. 6 147 Q Yeah, just a handful of times? 7 A A handful of times, yeah. 8 148 Q So you wouldn't describe yourself as having a 9 religious upbringing? 10 A No, I wouldn't. 11 149 Q Have you attended any university level courses? 12 A No, I haven't. 13 150 Q We've talked a little bit about your Green Gold 14 book -- 15 A Right. 16 151 Q -- which is Exhibit 2. This was published by a 17 publisher called Access Unlimited; is that 18 right? 19 A Yes, that's right. 20 152 Q That's a self-published press, isn't it? 21 A That is Lynn and Judy Osburn's publishing 22 company, and they have that in California. 23 153 Q All right. So that's the authors' own 24 publishing company? 25 A Sure. Yes. 36 1 154 Q You have attached as Exhibit A to your affidavit 2 a book called Sex, Drugs, Violence and the 3 Bible? 4 A Yes, that's right. 5 155 Q A copy here? 6 A Yes. 7 156 Q All right. And this is published by something 8 called Forbidden Fruit Publishing; is that 9 right? 10 A Yes, that's right. 11 157 Q And that's your publishing company? 12 A That's my publishing company. When I published 13 that book, I had had a deal in the works with a 14 large publishing company, Inner Traditions. 15 158 Q Who is that? 16 A It's a well-known American publisher. It 17 publishes lots of books. They looked at that 18 book for about six months and wrote me two or 19 three letters stating their interest in possibly 20 publishing it, and then after that six-month 21 period, basically they narrow down -- they take 22 a look at a large number of books. They narrow 23 that down through a few different meetings, and 24 this process had been taking a long time, and so 25 after about six months I wrote them and asked 37 1 them if they were going to do it or not, and 2 they said it looked like they were not going to 3 do it, and not wanting to repeat that process 4 with another publisher, I just went ahead and 5 published it myself. 6 159 Q Did you send your book or your manuscript to 7 Inner Traditions to review? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 160 Q You said they're a large, well-known publisher. 10 What other books have they published? 11 A Oh, they've published Marijuana Medicine. They 12 have like -- they have -- it's like other 13 smaller publication companies, 10 Speed Books 14 and stuff like that, are all part of the larger 15 Inner Tradition things. 16 They publish books on spirituality, I 17 believe psychoactive plants -- the Encyclopedia 18 of Psychoactive Plants was one of their books. 19 Marijuana Medicine was one of their books. I 20 don't know all the titles offhand. 21 161 Q I just wanted a few examples. 22 A There's a couple there, but they publish lots of 23 books. They're a well-known publisher. 24 162 Q Are they affiliated with a university? 25 A I have no idea if they're affiliated with a 38 1 university. As far as I know, no. 2 163 Q Had you sent your book to other publishers to 3 review? 4 A I was really hoping Inner Traditions would do 5 it. They were one of my favourite publishers, 6 and I have a lot of books from them. 7 164 Q So you haven't sent your book to any other 8 publishers? 9 A I think I might have sent it to one other 10 publisher here in Canada, maybe two other 11 publishers here in Canada that weren't 12 interested it. It was like an odd sort of book 13 for a publishing company to produce, you know. 14 My estimated sales probably didn't look that 15 great, and yeah, it's just not the typical book. 16 It's a difficult book to place for a publisher. 17 165 Q To whom did you send it, to your recollection? 18 A Yeah, that was like -- I wrote that book over 19 like a decade ago. That copy there came out a 20 decade ago. I really don't remember the name 21 specifically of who else I sent it to but not a 22 lot of publishers. I was really hoping for 23 Inner Traditions. I think there was two other 24 publishers, Canadian publishers, that I 25 approached, and it was just so far away from 39 1 anything that they printed that they just 2 weren't interested. 3 166 Q So this was published in 2000? 4 A Yeah, 2000, 2001, right around there. 5 167 Q All right. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: It's so large. I'm loathe to mark a 7 huge document, but we may as well just for 8 identification. So Exhibit 3, Sex, Drugs, 9 Violence and the Bible, which is Exhibit A to 10 the affidavit as well. 11 EXHIBIT 3: Book entitled Sex, Drugs, Violence 12 and the Bible (Exhibit A to Mr. Bennett's 13 affidavit) 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 15 168 Q And are there things in this book, the Sex, 16 Drugs and Violence book, to which you no longer 17 hold as well? 18 A I think there's like one quote about Paul from 19 Weston LaBarre that has some incorrect 20 information in it. 21 In that book as well I refer to soma, but 22 I'm not as definitive in my view that soma was a 23 preparation of cannabis as I later became to be, 24 but no, that's a wonderful book and I think will 25 be part of my legacy. 40 1 So no, I think it's a great book. 2 169 Q Do you mean the apostle Paul as referred to in 3 the Bible? 4 A Yeah. I wouldn't call him an apostle because he 5 never met Jesus directly, so I would refer to 6 the apostles as those individuals who actually 7 journeyed around with Jesus during his lifetime. 8 170 Q But that's the Paul to which you are referring, 9 the one that others may refer to -- 10 A Paul -- yeah, Paul, the father of the Roman 11 Catholic Church. 12 MR. TOUSAW: No, you -- 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: You have to let me finish. It's 14 really hard on the reporter. I'm just as guilty 15 of it, so ... 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not taking offence. I'm a fast 17 talker. 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 19 171 Q Just for clarification, I'm not trying to be 20 tricky. 21 A No. 22 172 Q I just want to be sure we're talking about the 23 same Paul. 24 A Yes. 25 173 Q All right. So the Paul that others may refer to 41 1 as the apostle Paul, the founder, as you say, of 2 the Roman Catholic Church? 3 A Paul, the founder of the Roman Catholic Church. 4 What other people refer to him as is not what I 5 refer to him as, so I'm not going to use that 6 term. 7 174 Q Right. And this is the subject matter of 8 something to which you no longer hold, a quote 9 about him; is that right? 10 A Yeah, a single quote is -- is unverifiable. He 11 cites a certain verse, and the verse doesn't 12 support that particular statement, but, you 13 know, like as with Green Gold, it's been a long 14 time since I've read that book from cover to 15 cover. I wrote it over 10 years ago. I did 16 review a lot of that material again while 17 working on my third book, Cannabis and the Soma 18 Solution, and did revisit -- you know, another 19 thing that maybe is in there that I'm not as -- 20 I'm not necessarily holding the same view, I 21 did -- I did go with the work of etymologist 22 Sula Benet, who has been very influential in my 23 research. This is the woman who first wrote 24 about these Hebrew references to cannabis under 25 the name kaneh bosem, and Sula Benet, who was a 42 1 Polish anthropologist and etymologist working in 2 1936, suggested that these references to kaneh 3 bosem, that kaneh bosem, the Hebrew term, was 4 the root of our modern term cannabis. 5 And that's only partially true because the 6 term kaneh bosem, particularly the "kaneh" part 7 of kaneh bosem, came into the Semitic language 8 via Indo-European individuals likely from the 9 tribe known as the Scythians and who also 10 practised the practice of burning cannabis 11 inside of enclosed tents much like Moses, who 12 burns cannabis oils in the tent of the meeting 13 to speak to the Lord over the pillar of smoke 14 over the incense altar. 15 175 Q M'mm-hmm. 16 A And this seems to be the way that the term 17 "cannabis" came in. It came in with its foreign 18 loan word that it originated with, and this word 19 was adapted into the Hebrew language with the 20 adjunct of the term "bosem," which has to do 21 with fragrance, so ... 22 176 Q All right. And coming back to Paul for a 23 moment, your book talks about Paul receiving 24 some revelations -- 25 A M'mm-hmm. 43 1 177 Q -- but you don't agree with Paul's revelations? 2 A Paul was a persecutor of early Christians, and 3 it seems to me that this individual acquired 4 some of the early Christian sacraments, 5 cannabis-based sacraments, and not being 6 familiar with these took these on his own and 7 had a very powerful experience under the 8 influence of cannabis that led to his conversion 9 to Christianity. 10 But it seemed that after this initial 11 experience that Paul's use of cannabis didn't 12 continue and that he seemed to be in conflict 13 with the earlier Christian groups, the Christian 14 groups that practised a Christianity that came 15 more directly from Jesus themselves having spent 16 time with Jesus where these substances were used 17 and the holy anointing oils and incenses and 18 likely mixed with wine, that he was in 19 opposition to these groups and their practices, 20 both their use of cannabis-based products as 21 well as their sacred sexual practices. 22 178 Q All right. So do you agree with Paul's 23 revelations or not? 24 A Do I agree with Paul's revelation that he -- 25 179 Q Are those your beliefs? 44 1 A I'm not sure where you -- 2 180 Q Oh, sorry, I -- 3 MR. TOUSAW: Yeah, I'm just going to object because I 4 don't know this topic very well, but I rather 5 imagine Paul had a number of revelations, and so 6 I don't know if it's a fair question to put to 7 the witness, whether he agrees with all of them 8 or some of them or any in particular. 9 THE WITNESS: You know -- well, for one thing -- 10 MR. TOUSAW: I don't know if you want to refine your 11 question or not. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Not particularly because his book 13 says that he feels that Paul's revelations were 14 false, were inaccurate and particularly with 15 respect to issues like homosexuality, so I'm 16 interested to know whether that's still the 17 case. 18 THE WITNESS: Paul's revelations concerning 19 homosexuality and stuff were not based on his 20 cannabis experience but his Jewish heritage. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 22 181 Q Oh. So that's what you're saying today? 23 A That is a fact of the statement. Paul's view on 24 homosexuality is based largely on Leviticus 17 25 or Leviticus 20, I'm not sure, where male 45 1 homosexuality is strictly forbidden, and that is 2 the basis of Paul's statements regarding 3 homosexuality. 4 182 Q What about Moses's revelations? Do you agree 5 with all the things that Moses claimed were said 6 to him by Jehovah? 7 A I certainly do not. 8 183 Q Do you still stand by the statement you made at 9 page 11 of the Sex, Drugs and Violence book 10 where you described the historical origins of 11 Judaism as including engaging in what is 12 effectively a holocaust, in other words, that 13 that's what the Jews did to other cultures? 14 A The term "holocaust" originates in reference to 15 the fire offering of the Canaanite culture by 16 the Hebrews. So that's where the term 17 originates. 18 184 Q So do you stand by that statement? 19 A Yes, yes, I quite clearly do. 20 185 Q Okay. Now, your third book -- oh, sorry, just 21 to back up for a moment, Forbidden Fruit 22 Publishing, that's a company that is your 23 company; is that right? 24 A Yes, that's right. 25 186 Q And it has no publications other than 46 1 publications offered by you? 2 A That is the sole and only publication of 3 Forbidden Fruit Publishing. 4 187 Q And by that you mean Exhibit 3 to this 5 cross-examination? 6 A Yes, that's correct. 7 188 Q All right. Your third publication that is 8 referred to in your affidavit in this proceeding 9 is Cannabis and the Soma Solution? 10 A Yes, that's correct. 11 189 Q And that's Exhibit B to your affidavit? 12 A Yes, that's correct. 13 190 Q And that's a book you describe is about to be 14 published by a company called TrineDay? 15 A Yes, that's correct. 16 191 Q I just happen to have a copy since it was 17 Exhibit B to your affidavit. I don't know that 18 we have to mark it. I don't have too many 19 questions about it, but I do have some questions 20 about TrineDay Publishing. 21 Now, that's a company run by a gentleman by 22 the name of Dan Marvin? 23 A The person that I've been dealing with at 24 TrineDay is actually named Chris Milligan. 25 192 Q M'mm-hmm. 47 1 A I don't -- haven't had contact with a Dan 2 Marvin, and I haven't researched the company to 3 see what their corporate ladder is or anything 4 like that. 5 193 Q Fair enough. How did you come to make an 6 arrangement with TrineDay for publication of 7 your book? 8 A Well, I had sent an earlier version of the 9 manuscript Cannabis and the Soma Solution to the 10 well-known American magazine High Times. 11 194 Q Sorry, I'll just pause there. High Times, 12 that's a magazine about? 13 A It's a magazine about cannabis. 14 195 Q Okay. 15 A Yeah, cannabis culture. 16 196 Q Sorry. Go on. 17 A That's been around since the early 70s. 18 And the editor of High Times magazine at 19 that time was a man named Steve Hager who had 20 been a supporter of my work and had published 21 other articles I'd written. 22 And he asked me what I was planning on 23 doing with Cannabis and the Soma Solution, and I 24 said, well, I was just thinking of 25 self-publishing again just because I don't like 48 1 the whole process of sending my books off and 2 waiting for responses, and I have the ability to 3 self-publish and some distribution abilities 4 through my affiliations with Cannabis Culture 5 and High Times and stuff like that. 6 And he told me that he thought that didn't 7 do the book justice and that I really needed to 8 go on board with a bigger publisher, and he 9 suggested Chris Milligan at TrineDay, and I 10 contacted Chris Milligan, and even prior to 11 taking a look at the manuscript he told me he 12 wanted to do the book, he knew who I was, he was 13 a supporter of my research and that he wanted to 14 do the book. 15 So taking that keenness into account, I 16 sent him a copy of it, and we came to an 17 agreement. 18 197 Q Can you describe the agreement you came to? Did 19 you pay him any money for a pre-order? 20 MR. TOUSAW: Well, just -- 21 A No. 22 MR. TOUSAW: -- a minute. I'm going to object on the 23 basis of relevance, but the witness can answer. 24 A No, no, it wasn't any sort of Vanity Press or 25 anything like that. This was just a straight up 49 1 I get a percentage of the sales of the books. I 2 can't recall exactly what that number is. I 3 think it's about 20 percent of the profit of the 4 book, but, yeah, I'd have to go back and look 5 over the contract to give you the exact details 6 on that. But, no, alls that I gave him was the 7 manuscript and the original art work I'd had 8 produced for the cover. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 10 198 Q You did your own art work for the cover? 11 A No. I commissioned an artist to do some art 12 work for the cover. 13 199 Q All right. Did you ever go to TrineDay's 14 website or do any research on them? 15 A After talking to them I looked at their website. 16 They seemed to produce a lot of books on things 17 like Freemasonry, 9/11 conspiracy theories, 18 things like that. 19 200 Q I have a copy of their web page. I'm not going 20 to put it to you, but I'm just going to ask in 21 terms of your recollection. 22 So some of the books that it appears they 23 have produced are things like America's Secret 24 Establishment. Does that ring a bell with you? 25 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object on the basis of 50 1 relevance, but the witness can answer. 2 A Yeah, I can't -- 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 201 Q You can't recall? 5 A The only one I can -- there's a book on Skull & 6 Bones that I've seen around that I recognize, 7 but as far as the other titles, they weren't 8 topics that I was particularly researching, so I 9 didn't really put a lot of energy into it. 10 They sent me some books that they 11 published. I didn't even read those, and I 12 can't even recall the names of those books as 13 well. 14 202 Q All right. Fair enough. Would it surprise you 15 to hear that your book is not listed in their 16 upcoming publications list? 17 A No, but they're publishing it, you know. It's 18 not out yet. 19 203 Q So they have a list of publications to come -- 20 A Yeah. 21 204 Q -- in 2010, and your book is not listed there. 22 Would it surprise you if you heard that? 23 A I think that it's not listed because of the 24 direction of that particular book catalogue to 25 their conspiracy things, and my book is 51 1 different than what they ever had, but my book 2 is listed in Amazon with them for presales and 3 is being currently presold. They're collecting 4 money. Copies have been sold of the book 5 already, although it's months away from 6 publication. 7 205 Q When do you anticipate it will be published? 8 A I think in about two or three months. 9 206 Q The version that is attached as Exhibit B to 10 your affidavit in this proceeding, is it one 11 that's in the precess of being edited at all? 12 A Yes. That version there has been edited, and 13 some pages, not really anything taken out, but 14 there has been some additional information 15 added, grammar, spelling areas corrected, but 16 not anything removed, as far as I know, and 17 from -- I'm going over their print copy right 18 now, the final copy before print, and yeah, it 19 seems to be pretty much the same manuscript. 20 207 Q All right. So you sell your books? 21 A M'mm-hmm. 22 208 Q And some of that profit comes to you? 23 MR. TOUSAW: You have to say yes or no. 24 A Yes, yes. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 52 1 209 Q You have to say yes or no. 2 A Yes. 3 210 Q And some of that profit comes to you? 4 A Unfortunately I'd say that I don't know. I 5 couldn't testify that I've made a profit on my 6 books. 7 The first one I ran into trouble with the 8 publishers and co-authors and didn't collect 9 money that I was owed and stopped publication of 10 it. 11 The second book -- 12 211 Q Sorry, can I just pause you there? 13 So the first book, the one that is 14 Exhibit B or 2, I guess, to this 15 cross-examination, the Green Gold book, that one 16 is out of print? 17 A Yes. 18 212 Q And that's because you had some disputes with 19 your publisher? 20 A Yes. 21 213 Q And when did it go out of print? When did those 22 disputes happen? 23 A That was about 1996, I believe. 24 214 Q All right. Okay. Sorry, I interrupted you. 25 You were going to tell me about whether you made 53 1 money off of ... 2 A Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible. If I did, 3 it was a very slow return. I stopped 4 wholesaling the book. I printed up about 5 1,500 copies, and I just wasn't happy with 6 Amazon and dealing with Amazon because it didn't 7 seem like I made enough money from the books 8 with all their costs, so I stopped dealing with 9 Amazon, and I just decided to retail the copies 10 myself and get the full value of the book cover 11 price. 12 I didn't really go out of my way to do a 13 lot of advertising. I just kind of sold it 14 through my website and through my store, but it 15 always sells. I sell copies all the time, but, 16 you know, the initial investment, I would assume 17 I've claimed that, and I'm making a profit, but 18 it's been -- you know, compared to how I could 19 have spent $15,000 to make money initially 20 10 years ago, I would have seen the return in a 21 lot -- more financially. 22 I don't do the books out of love of money. 23 I do the books as part of my spiritual path. 24 215 Q You mentioned your dealings with Amazon didn't 25 work out in the Sex, Drugs, Violence book case. 54 1 A M'mm-hmm. 2 216 Q I'm not published, so fill me in. Is Amazon 3 somebody you contact and sell -- 4 A Oh. Yeah, Amaz- -- 5 MR. TOUSAW: If you let me have a continuing 6 objection to this line of questioning I won't 7 continue to interrupt, but I think it's 8 irrelevant. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I disagree about the irrelevance. 10 MR. TOUSAW: That's fine. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: But we can talk about that. I take 12 it you're letting your witness answer? 13 MR. TOUSAW: I'm letting the witness answer. I don't 14 want to take up time unnecessarily in your 15 cross-examination by interposing objections to 16 all the questions. 17 A Yeah, well, with Amazon they just charge a lot 18 of -- and again, I'm talking about my experience 19 like 10 years ago. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 21 217 Q Yeah. Just to be clear about my question, I'm 22 just wondering if getting a book onto Amazon is 23 something that you initiate or Amazon initiates? 24 A Oh, I initiated, I believe. I can't recall for 25 sure, but I initiated it. 55 1 218 Q And in the case of the book that you anticipate 2 will be published by TrineDay, that's one that 3 the publisher would initiate vis-a-vis Amazon, 4 not something that Amazon would initiate? 5 A As far as I know, but I really can't attest to 6 that. I have had other wholesalers approach me 7 about Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible asking, 8 you know, for -- to be able to distribute or 9 stores wanting it, but because of the lesser 10 amount of money that I get for those copies with 11 the remaining ones that I have, I prefer to sell 12 them at the full retail price. 13 219 Q Right. And your other publications, you've 14 written some articles and so on. 15 A M'mm-hmm. 16 220 Q They've never been published by any academic 17 press, have they? 18 A I have an article coming out in Dr. Julie 19 Holland's book on cannabis that has pretty much 20 all the other papers or academics and stuff, as 21 far as I know. 22 221 Q Right. But I'm referring to an academic 23 publisher. So that would be a publisher 24 affiliated with a university. 25 A I believe Dr. Julie Holland's book is affiliated 56 1 with a university, but I can't attest to that, 2 and references to my work have appeared in 3 Professor Carl Ruck's books, citing specifically 4 my own research and work, which are published 5 through university publications. 6 222 Q So you haven't made much money, you're telling 7 me, off of your books, or you've made a profit 8 but not sure how much? 9 A M'mm-hmm. 10 223 Q How else do you earn a living? 11 A I have a store. 12 224 Q Describe your store. 13 A I have a store called Urban Shaman Entheo 14 Botanicals, and in that store I sell a variety 15 of botanicals from around the globe that have 16 been used in shamanic and healing rituals. 17 225 Q Do you sell ayahuasca? 18 A I do not sell prepared ayahuasca. 19 226 Q You sell the makings of it, though? 20 A I sell plants that are used in the making of 21 ayahuasca. 22 227 Q Do you sell cannabis parts? 23 A I do not sell any cannabis products, as far as I 24 recall. Like I'm just trying to think if I have 25 any hemp material in there or -- nothing with 57 1 seeds. I can't sell hemp clothes because I 2 share a space with Marc Emery's store, and I 3 cannot sell anything that Marc Emery sells in 4 his store. 5 228 Q Do you sell paraphernalia for use in consuming 6 cannabis? 7 A I have things like antique hashish pipes, like 8 old, old ones more for display. I do sell some 9 chillums, which are a ritual cannabis-using 10 device from India. 11 229 Q That's a vessel of some kind? 12 A It's like a type of long, cylindrical pipe used 13 by devotees of the Lord Shiva, the oldest 14 worshiped god on earth who is also the lord of 15 cannabis. 16 230 Q Is that your lord, Lord Shiva? 17 A That is what I would call one of the -- I'm just 18 trying to think how to put this. 19 231 Q Well, it's a yes or no question. 20 A You know, it's not as simple as that, and some 21 questions require more than yes or no answers. 22 It's a description of God. 23 232 Q Is that your God? Is that your description of 24 God? 25 A I would say that Shiva is probably my favourite 58 1 description of God due to his similarity to the 2 gnostic, Christian gnostic concept of anthropos, 3 which is the gnostic saviour, and also his 4 similarity to the Greek Dionysus, his connection 5 with the Greek Dionysus. It's believed that the 6 two gods originate from the same source. 7 233 Q So is the Greek Dionysus your god as well? 8 A That is a name put on a definition of God which 9 I hold to the larger concept of God which -- 10 that includes those definitions, cultural 11 definitions. They're traditions which I ascribe 12 to, and I think many of the devotees of that god 13 were coming into contact with the actual divine 14 essence of humanity. 15 234 Q All right. Shiva and Dionysus are 16 anthropomorphized gods; is that right? 17 A Yes. 18 235 Q Do you hold to an anthropomorphized god? I 19 pronounced that badly. 20 A Well, if you're asking me what I conceive of God 21 as in regards to the human experience -- 22 236 Q I'm not. I'm asking you whether you hold to an 23 anthropomorphized God. 24 A I believe man makes God in his own image. 25 237 Q So is God a creature, a being? 59 1 A No, I don't think that God is walking around 2 with arms and legs and hands. 3 238 Q Or multiple arms and legs and hands like Shiva? 4 A Or multiple arms and legs and hands, in the case 5 of some representations of Shiva, but not in all 6 representations of Shiva. 7 239 Q All right. So the anthropomorphized aspects of 8 Shiva and Dionysus are not part of your God? 9 A They're part of my religious world view, yes. 10 240 Q Well, they're either part of your God or they're 11 not, and you're telling me -- 12 A No, no, you're telling -- 13 MR. TOUSAW: Hold on. Stop. You have to let her 14 finish her question. 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 16 241 Q You're telling me that God doesn't walk around 17 and doesn't have arms and hands and legs, so 18 please explain how it is that Shiva and Dionysus 19 are part of your view of God? 20 MR. TOUSAW: Okay, I'm going to object to the first 21 part of your question because I think it 22 mischaracterizes the witness's prior testimony. 23 I'm going to allow the witness to answer the 24 question. 25 A Well, that's your archetypal representation of 60 1 God come to by humans, but from my perception of 2 God it has to do -- I think the closest the 3 human experience we can experience God has to do 4 with coming into contact with what is the 5 collective and instinctual aspects of 6 consciousness. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 242 Q Okay. 9 A And when I'm referring to this, like Carl 10 Jung -- I don't know if you know who Dr. Carl 11 Jung was, but he was the father of modern 12 psychology. He referred to a collective 13 unconscious that was a repository of human 14 knowledge and experience, and Jung said that 15 this was the instinctual function in humanity. 16 And in other animals instinctual function 17 serves as a form of sort of genetic memory. So 18 another species say like a sea elephant, it can 19 dive down into the water and get fish the day 20 it's born, so the knowledge of that is 21 predisposed in the sea elephant. 22 Deers and horses can stand up and walk 23 around the day they're born, they don't have to 24 be trained, so the knowledge and information 25 regarding those activities is predisposed in 61 1 those species. 2 And due to the evolutionary process, our 3 brains in many ways are similar to the brains of 4 those species but with more stuff built on it, 5 areas of higher thinking and memory and stuff 6 like that. 7 But those instinctual abilities in man are 8 more inside the centre of the brain and related 9 to that, and cannabis in many ways brings about 10 an experience of that collective and instinctual 11 function, and Jung referred to it as the 12 collective unconscious, but in the view of both 13 Shaivism, Dionysism and in gnostic god 14 anthropos, which I referred to earlier, 15 anthropos specifically represents the spirit of 16 humanity, the collective spirit of humanity. 17 I would say that just as cannabis served as 18 a means of self-reflection and the ability to 19 think and identify at the beginning of religion, 20 as I discuss in my book Sex, Drugs, Violence and 21 the Bible, taking Moses, for instance, Moses is 22 from a small, almost stone age tribe, nomadic 23 tribe, and the idea that I put forth in Sex, 24 Drugs, Violence and the Bible is that -- and 25 this is not based upon my opinion but more upon 62 1 material I've read, particularly the 2 psychologist Julian Jaynes in his book The 3 Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the 4 Bicameral Mind, and Jaynes's theory, which I 5 share in a large part, is that early man didn't 6 seem to think and reflect in the same way -- and 7 that's in Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible; I 8 don't know if I mentioned Jaynes in this book -- 9 in the same way that we did and that thinking 10 and the ability for reflective thought and 11 consideration was an evolutionary ability that 12 occurred and is still occurring from about 5,000 13 years ago with the earliest forms of religion 14 and written religions and whatnot to today in 15 places like, you know, stone age tribes in 16 Australia or South America where these people 17 are really just coming into the ability of 18 having higher thoughts like "I think therefore I 19 am," and that cannabis due to its receptor sites 20 in the area of higher thinking and memory 21 facilitated this fire in the brain that led to 22 thought and that somebody like Moses would go 23 into the tent of the meeting and he would cover 24 himself in the kaneh bosem-enriched holy 25 anointing oil -- THC is fatty soluble and it 63 1 goes through the skin -- and he would place some 2 of this cannabis-enriched holy oil on the altar 3 of incense and light that and speak to the Lord 4 in a pillar of smoke and inside that enclosed 5 chamber inhale that smoke and then ponder on a 6 problem of his tribe and then eventually 7 information and knowledge would surface and he 8 would come out and say, okay, I've asked God the 9 questions and this is what the gods are 10 answering. 11 And this has to do with the origins of 12 thinking. There is even elements of this left 13 over in language. Terms like "genius" comes 14 from the same root as genie. It basically means 15 guardian angel. "Enthusiasm" has elements of 16 possession. Early Greek philosophers speak of 17 their muse, and this is like their ability for 18 forethought and memory. 19 The earliest Mesopotamian deities where 20 cannabis was also used in religious rites are 21 referred to as tutelary deities and represented 22 a person's ability for forethought and memory. 23 So this is all directly related to the 24 deeper aspects of consciousness, and figures 25 like Dionysus, Shiva and anthropos speak to that 64 1 element of consciousness and humanity. They 2 represent the archetypal man in the same way 3 there is an archetypal chair, the idea of a 4 chair out there, even though there is no chair. 5 243 Q A botanic ideal? 6 A Yeah. 7 244 Q So help me out here, because I haven't spent the 8 years that you have researching this, this 9 concept of the collective conscious, the concept 10 that you're describing at the bottom of page 419 11 of the Green Gold book falling over to the top 12 of page 420. I've highlighted the passages. 13 A M'mm-hmm. Well, for one thing, I didn't write 14 all of this here. I didn't write these 15 particular passages. 16 245 Q But does it capture that concept? I just want 17 to be sure I'm understanding it. 18 A Yeah. I'm just going over all the -- I see 19 other stuff -- 20 246 Q Right. Because you mentioned Carl Jung, and I 21 see there's a quote from Carl Jung there as 22 well. 23 A Yeah. Yeah. 24 MR. TOUSAW: Just for purposes of the record, that's 25 on page 419 -- 65 1 THE WITNESS: 419, yeah. 2 MR. TOUSAW: -- of, what, Exhibit 3 in these 3 proceedings? 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I think it's Exhibit 2, but let's 5 look at the front sticker, shall we. 6 MR. TOUSAW: Exhibit 2, yes. Thank you. 7 A Well, I don't think that's what I was 8 describing, although I don't disagree with the 9 key points of this, but I don't think that is 10 exactly what I was describing, no. 11 That's talking about collective 12 consciousness. I did refer to collective 13 consciousness because there's a collective 14 element to instinctual consciousness that we can 15 see via herds, schools of fish, flocks of birds, 16 you know, the whole hundredth monkey theory, I 17 don't know if you're familiar with that, and 18 that's definitely a large part of what I'm about 19 and what my religious view is about. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 21 247 Q So I just want to stop because I want to be sure 22 that I understand. 23 A Yeah. 24 248 Q So insofar as earlier you were describing your 25 concept of God and explaining to me the role of 66 1 Dionysus and Shiva in that concept, when you 2 were referring to collective consciousness, I am 3 correct in saying that that collective 4 consciousness concept is the concept that is 5 captured on pages 419 to 420? 6 A Just parts of it. 7 249 Q What parts am I missing? 8 A The instinctual function part. 9 250 Q All right. So -- 10 A There's no reference to instinctual function in 11 there. Those are very real things that describe 12 a sort of spiritual experience as well, in my 13 view. 14 251 Q All right. So -- 15 A So the collective -- yeah. 16 252 Q Sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just -- 17 A I should finish. I should finish. 18 253 Q Some of your answers have been really long, but 19 I just want to be sure. 20 So what's missing there is your references 21 to the instinctual function of humanity and 22 other creatures? 23 A Yeah. I'd really have to -- that's kind of a 24 confusing statement on there. Because I didn't 25 write it, I really -- and the way it's written, 67 1 I was never really that keen on Lynn Osburn's 2 own writing, to tell you the truth, and that's 3 who wrote that. 4 I would say that if you want a description 5 of my view on that, then you're better off to 6 look at Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible in 7 the conclusion where I go into great detail 8 about all this, and if you pass me Sex, Drugs, 9 Violence and the Bible, I'd be happy to show you 10 those particular passages because those are my 11 words and that's my description. 12 254 Q Are all the words in Sex, Drugs, Violence and 13 the Bible yours? 14 A Probably about 80 percent of the words in Sex, 15 Drugs, Violence and the Bible are my words. 16 Well, there's a lot of quotes, which is probably 17 more than half the book. 18 255 Q And I worded that question poorly. 19 A Yeah. Yeah. 20 256 Q Are all of the conclusions in Sex, Drugs, 21 Violence and the Bible conclusions to which you 22 hold? 23 A Yes, they are. I was in control of that book in 24 a much greater way. I had -- probably about 25 80 percent of the work in there is my own work 68 1 and research. The other work is the work of my 2 assistant, Neil McQueen, who has a masters 3 degree in religious studies with a focus on the 4 Bible, and I would get Neil to research certain 5 areas of the Bible, and he would submit that 6 material to me, I would review it, and then I 7 would work it into the greater text. 8 257 Q So the conclusions are yours? 9 A Yes, they are. 10 258 Q All right. That's helpful. 11 Now, you were talking about the Urban 12 Shaman. 13 A M'mm-hmm. 14 259 Q And we got into discussing what you sell there. 15 Do you sell other controlled substances other 16 than cannabis at the Urban Shaman? 17 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to interpose an objection that 18 you're calling for a legal conclusion from this 19 witness on what constitutes a controlled 20 substance or not. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, there's a -- 22 MR. TOUSAW: So I'm going to direct him not to answer 23 that question. 24 MS. SOKHANSANJ: There's a list of them in the 25 legislation. We can walk through them. 69 1 MR. TOUSAW: I'll also interpose a second objection 2 that obviously the witness is -- to the extent 3 he's being asked if he violates the Controlled 4 Drugs and Substance Act, you ask him to put 5 himself in legal jeopardy, and I'm going to 6 instruct him not to answer those questions. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, interestingly, Mr. Tousaw, I 8 see that you were completely open to the witness 9 discussing his consumption of cannabis earlier 10 today -- 11 MR. TOUSAW: Yes, that's relevant to this case. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- his intention to consume more 13 later in the day, his carrying cannabis about on 14 his person. 15 MR. TOUSAW: And those are all relevant to this 16 particular proceeding. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I don't think questions about 18 what is sold and not sold at the Urban Shaman is 19 irrelevant. I think that's highly relevant when 20 we get to Mr. Bennett's sincerity. 21 MR. TOUSAW: I disagree, and I will note that your 22 witness took the position that there was no 23 doubt as to Mr. Bennett's sincerity on the part 24 of your client. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, that's not how I interpret my 70 1 witness's evidence, but we don't need to have 2 that argument on the record here today. 3 260 Q Do you sell any amphetamines? 4 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to first object to the 5 relevance of that question, and second, instruct 6 the witness not to answer. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 261 Q Do you sell any opiates? 9 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection; same instruction. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 11 262 Q Do you sell anything with psilocybin in it? 12 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection; same instruction. 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 14 263 Q On the topic of psilocybin, Professor Ruck is of 15 the view that soma was psilocybin, is he? 16 A Professor Ruck is also of the view that cannabis 17 was used in all such soma preparations as well, 18 and he has acknowledged the role of cannabis in 19 soma. 20 264 Q So he -- 21 A He does not -- 22 265 Q Sorry. 23 A I would say that Ruck does not say that soma was 24 a preparation of the psilocybin mushroom. 25 266 Q Really. Interestingly enough, when I read 71 1 through your book, Cannabis and the Soma 2 Solution, it appeared that Professor Ruck was of 3 that view. Has he changed his views, to your 4 knowledge? 5 A No, that's not what it says in there. 6 Psilocybin mushroom, I think you have your 7 mushrooms confused. 8 267 Q Oh. Which mushroom was it that Dr. Ruck is of 9 the view is part of the soma? 10 A The amanita muscaria mushroom. 11 268 Q Is that something that you sell at Urban Shaman? 12 MR. TOUSAW: That's an objection, and direct my 13 witness not to answer that question. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 15 269 Q Is mescaline or products that contain mescaline 16 something that you sell at the Urban Shaman? 17 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection; same direction. 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 19 270 Q Is mescaline or products that contain mescaline 20 something that you sell at the Urban Shaman? 21 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection; same direction. 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 23 271 Q You have a website, don't you, for the Urban 24 Shaman? 25 A Yes, I do. 72 1 272 Q Do you ever look at your website? 2 A Yes, I do. 3 273 Q Your website lists peyote, doesn't it? 4 A Peyote is not a scheduled substance. 5 274 Q Well, that may be your perspective. Peyote is a 6 substance that contains mescaline, isn't it, 7 sir? 8 A I think you need to go back and read what it 9 says about mescaline and peyote. That's what I 10 think. 11 275 Q What what says about mescaline and peyote? 12 A Peyote is excluded specifically from the 13 schedule for mescaline. 14 276 Q So that's your perspective on the law, and 15 that's very interesting, sir, but what I'm 16 asking you is, you sell peyote at the Urban 17 Shaman, don't you? 18 A Not right now I don't. 19 MR. TOUSAW: Well, same objection; same direction. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 21 277 Q Your website says it's available, doesn't it? 22 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection; same direction. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Do you need me to put his website to 24 him? He's obviously familiar with it. 25 MR. TOUSAW: I don't see its relevance to this 73 1 proceeding. This proceeding is about 2 Mr. Bennett's spiritual use of cannabis. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 278 Q You're awfully tense about answering questions 5 about the other controlled substances you sell, 6 aren't you? 7 How much do you -- 8 A No. Actually -- 9 MR. TOUSAW: Stop. 10 THE WITNESS: Actually -- 11 MR. TOUSAW: Stop. Stop. 12 A Actually, no. 13 MR. TOUSAW: Stop. Stop. Stop. 14 I'm going to object to the relevance of 15 that question. I'm going to object to you 16 characterizing the witness as tense. I'm going 17 to direct the witness not to answer that 18 question. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, let the record show that the 20 witness suddenly became very erect and quite 21 keen and started to interject. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I just want to say something 23 here, Kirk. 24 MR. TOUSAW: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: First of all, I became abrupt at that 74 1 because of your assertion to that effect, which 2 is completely untrue. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 279 Q So you don't sell peyote and never have at the 5 Urban Shaman? 6 A No, your assertion that I'm uptight or, you 7 know, feeling tense about it because I'm 8 actually quite enjoying this process. This is 9 my idea of a good time. 10 280 Q All right. So you have sold peyote at the Urban 11 Shaman? 12 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. I don't see the 13 relevance. I'm going to direct the witness not 14 to answer that question. 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 16 281 Q How much is your annual income from the Urban 17 Shaman? 18 MR. TOUSAW: Same thing. I'm going to object. I 19 don't see the relevance of that question. This 20 case is not about my witness's income. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, this case is about your 22 witness's sincerity, and if your witness has 23 other motives, that goes squarely to sincerity. 24 MR. TOUSAW: Well, then ask him a question about his 25 motives related to cannabis and I will allow him 75 1 to answer that question. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I have asked him about -- 3 MR. TOUSAW: But I should say, for the purpose of the 4 record again, your witness's position just the 5 other day was that there was no question about 6 the sincerity of Mr. Bennett's religious 7 beliefs. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I don't think that was my witness's 9 position, but let's move on. 10 MR. TOUSAW: That was her testimony over and over 11 again. 12 THE WITNESS: It was. 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, that -- 14 MR. TOUSAW: Ask him a question that's relevant, 15 counsel. 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 17 282 Q How long have you been operating the Urban 18 Shaman? 19 A I think about four or five years, I guess. Four 20 or five years. 21 283 Q Prior to that what were you doing? 22 A I ran pot.tv for Mr. Marc Emery. 23 284 Q What is pot.tv ? 24 A It's an internet website that pioneered the 25 streaming of video online on the internet and 76 1 deals with subjects relating to cannabis. 2 285 Q And when did you run that? 3 A I ran that from about 2000 to 2005. 4 286 Q All right. And were you doing -- was there any 5 overlap in terms of your activities with the 6 Urban Shaman and Pot-TV? 7 A No. Well, I continued to help with Pot-TV, as I 8 do to the present, but as an employment factor, 9 no, there were no overlaps. 10 287 Q All right. So Pot-TV is something with which 11 you continue to be involved right now? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 288 Q All right. And Pot-TV has a variety of 14 programming, does it? 15 A Yeah, it does. You know, I should say when I'm 16 involved with it, the odd time I might post a 17 link to a show online that I've come across 18 that's relevant to Pot-TV and, you know, post a 19 link in there. 20 I couldn't say that I even work on the site 21 once a month really. So, you know, here and 22 there I do a little bit of things. 23 If I'm in a news interview or a radio 24 interview I may link to that and put that up 25 there, but I'm not really working or too 77 1 involved with it right now these days. 2 289 Q From 2000 to 2005 you were employed full-time as 3 the manager? 4 A Yes. 5 290 Q All right. And as the manager were you 6 responsible for any programming? 7 A Yes. 8 291 Q Were you responsible for all the programming? 9 A Well, I don't know what you mean "responsible." 10 I produced the videos, filmed them and stuff, 11 but Marc was -- you know, I was working for 12 Marc, so Marc had the wider control and say in 13 matters. 14 292 Q M'mm-hmm. As part of -- sorry, I should back 15 up. 16 You may have told me this already, but 17 Pot-TV, all of the programming relates to 18 cannabis, does it? 19 A We've covered other subjects like ayahuasca on 20 there, and I -- while working for Marc Emery, I 21 organized two conferences dealing with the wider 22 role of psychoactive plants in religious and 23 mystical experience. 24 293 Q Are these the two conferences you refer to in 25 your affidavit? 78 1 A Entheogenesis conferences, yes. 2 294 Q In paragraph 20? 3 A Yes. 4 295 Q So those are conferences you organized between 5 2000 and 2005? 6 A Yes. 7 296 Q All right. What percentage of the programming 8 between 2000 and 2005 would you say was cannabis 9 related on Pot-TV? 10 A Probably about 98, 99 percent. 11 297 Q The vast majority? 12 A The vast majority. 13 298 Q All right. Some of the activities of Pot-TV 14 included things like running contests for the 15 best cannabis? 16 A Yes, that's correct. 17 299 Q Were you involved with those contests? 18 A Yes. Yes, I was. 19 300 Q Did you consume cannabis in the context of being 20 involved in those contests? 21 A Yes. Yes, I did. 22 301 Q Were you a judge on those contests? 23 A Yes. Yes, I was. 24 302 Q Were you paid for that? 25 A Yes. Yes, I was. 79 1 303 Q Do you continue to be a judge at cannabis 2 competitions worldwide? 3 A When invited. 4 304 Q When's the last time you were a judge at one? 5 A Probably those contests that you referred to. 6 305 Q Between 2000 and 2005? 7 A Yeah. 8 306 Q And you consumed cannabis in the context of 9 those contests? 10 A Yes. Yes. 11 307 Q I believe you told me -- 12 A I've been at one in Europe as well. 13 308 Q -- you did. 14 A In Europe as well, Cannabis Cup. 15 309 Q And cannabis is -- 16 MR. TOUSAW: You've just got to let her finish her 17 question, take a break, think of your answer. 18 The court reporter is just trying to frantically 19 keep up, so ... 20 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. And we'll take a break 22 soon. 23 310 Q In the context of those contests when you're 24 consuming the cannabis, cannabis is the tree of 25 life? That was your belief during the contest? 80 1 A Yes. 2 311 Q Yeah. So you're consuming -- that was a 3 sacramental act, your consumption of cannabis? 4 A Yes. 5 312 Q I'm going to show an article from the Cannabis 6 Culture website and ask you to identify whether 7 this is one of the contests to which you refer. 8 A M'mm-hmm. 9 313 Q The article is titled "POT-TV: The Contest". 10 A M'mm-hmm. 11 314 Q And it's dated October 10, 2005. 12 A Right. 13 315 Q So you would have been employed at Pot-TV at the 14 time? 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I have a copy for you as well, 16 Mr. Tousaw. 17 A Yes, that's right. 18 MR. TOUSAW: But before we start asking questions, I 19 would suggest that we mark it as an exhibit. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I think we're at 4. 21 EXHIBIT 4: Article entitled "Pot-TV: The 22 Contest" 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 24 316 Q All right. So if you would turn to the second 25 page, but I will let you just flip through it 81 1 actually, Mr. Bennett, and just confirm that 2 this is a description of a contest in which you 3 participated? 4 A Yeah. I don't recall this particular article, 5 but sure, yeah. 6 317 Q Yeah. And the picture on the second page -- 7 A That's me there. 8 318 Q -- the centre individual, that's you? 9 A Yes. 10 319 Q That's Mr. Emery on the left? 11 A Yeah, and that's vaporizing that I was referring 12 to earlier. 13 320 Q This thing involving the plastic bag, that's 14 vaporizing? 15 A Yes, that's vaporizing. 16 321 Q So that's a sacramental use of cannabis there? 17 A Yes. Yes, it is. 18 322 Q All right. And the next page, which is the 19 third page, with the giant bag there, is that 20 also a vaporizer? 21 A Yes. 22 323 Q And are you about to consume that? Have you 23 just consumed it? 24 A I would say that I have consumed bags prior to 25 this image and that I'm about to consume the bag 82 1 in the image as well. 2 324 Q And that's a sacramental use of cannabis, is it? 3 A Yes. Yes, it is. All my use is sacramental. 4 325 Q All your use is sacramental? 5 A Yes. Medicinal and sacramental. 6 326 Q Oh, sorry, you have some medicinal use as well? 7 Please describe. 8 A Medicinal -- medicinal is, as I -- as noted, is 9 part of the tree of life, so the prevention of 10 things like cancer, the extension of my life, 11 dealing with things like anxiety and stress, 12 helping me keep focus on my spiritual path, 13 which is a liberation of the tree of life, are 14 all elements of my sacramental use of cannabis. 15 327 Q I think you told me before, but correct me if 16 I'm wrong, that your other uses of cannabis in 17 its other forms or fruits also is a sacramental 18 use? 19 A All of it. 20 328 Q All of it? 21 A It's all the tree of life. 22 329 Q So use of any part of the cannabis plant or a 23 variety thereof is a sacramental use? 24 A Yes, even eating the seeds and stuff like that. 25 It's all a gift from the tree of life, and I 83 1 give thanks for all of it to the gods out there, 2 in the name of God. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. Well, I think we'll take 4 a break there. 5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 10:58 A.M.) 6 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:12 A.M.) 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 330 Q Mr. Bennett, we're back from a break. 9 A M'mm-hmm. 10 331 Q Did you talk to anyone about your evidence 11 during the break? 12 A Kirk brought up something about section 5, but 13 that's about it. 14 332 Q Section 5 of what, sir? 15 A You'd have to ask -- 16 MR. TOUSAW: The witness and I discussed section 5 of 17 the Canada Evidence Act, and I was going to 18 speak to you about it during our next break. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Oh, this is the self-incriminating 20 aspect? 21 MR. TOUSAW: Self-incrimination protections, yes. 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. Maybe that's something 23 we can talk about later. 24 MR. TOUSAW: I think that's wise. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 84 1 333 Q And that's all you discussed? 2 A Yes. 3 334 Q All right. Did you consume any controlled 4 substances over the break? 5 A No, I did not. 6 335 Q You didn't consume any cannabis over the break? 7 A No, I did not. 8 336 Q No peyote? 9 A No peyote. 10 337 Q All right. 11 MR. TOUSAW: It would make for an interesting 12 afternoon. 13 THE WITNESS: Maybe we could all do some. 14 MR. TOUSAW: For one of us. 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 16 338 Q Let's get back to the question of your 17 employment. 18 A Yes. 19 339 Q How are you earning a living right now apart 20 from the Urban Shaman? How do you pay for 21 yourself and your family? 22 A I pay for it through my shop, the Urban Shaman. 23 340 Q So that's your source of income? 24 A Yeah. 25 341 Q Although you said you also are paid for judging 85 1 cannabis competitions? 2 A I said I judged cannabis competitions, and when 3 I was working for Pot-TV I was in the contest, 4 and I was being a salary position [sic]. The 5 contest was part of it. 6 At one time in Amsterdam, I think it was in 7 2003, I was invited to be a celebrity judge at 8 the Cannabis Cup, and I was given a thousand 9 dollars, and I gave a presentation there. 10 Beyond that, no, I have not received any 11 money for judging cannabis. 12 342 Q Do you get paid for speaking engagements? 13 A Usually I just request that my travel expenses 14 have been covered. So the last speaking 15 engagement that I received money for was an 16 event at the University of Vancouver Island or 17 Vancouver Island University I guess it's called, 18 and Mr. Ted Smith, one of the organizers of the 19 said event, I think, gave me $150 which covered 20 my driving over and driving back on the ferry 21 and some gas money but not really any sort of 22 profit whatsoever from the event, and I 23 generally, yeah, I can't say that I get paid 24 beyond travel expenses, no. 25 343 Q Other than the time you received a thousand 86 1 dollars for the event in Amsterdam, have you 2 ever received a thousand dollars or more with 3 respect to a speaking or presentation 4 engagement? 5 A Yes. I should clarify on that. That was for a 6 whole week in Amsterdam that required my 7 activity and stuff, so it wasn't just like a 8 thousand dollars just for the speaking 9 engagement. 10 No, not that I recall. I have never been 11 paid -- paid more than a thousand dollars for 12 any sort of speaking engagement or anything. 13 344 Q Have you been paid as much as a thousand dollars 14 other than the event in Amsterdam? 15 A Only in respect to travel expenses where I 16 was -- you know, like I said, I received 100, 17 $150 for travel expenses, that sort of thing, so 18 only in respect of that. 19 345 Q And at these cannabis competitions, let's take, 20 for example, the one with respect to which I 21 showed you the article, so Exhibit -- 22 MR. TOUSAW: 4. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 24 346 Q -- 4. Mr. Emery is in one of those photographs 25 along with you. We looked at that. It's a 87 1 photograph on page 2. 2 A Yeah. Yes. 3 347 Q Is Mr. Emery's use a sacramental use in that 4 photograph? 5 A I can't speak to another person's religious 6 view. I will tell you that Mr. Emery did 7 describe an event of a woman having a prophesy 8 about his role in the cannabis reform movement 9 as much as 15 to 20 years ago that it took 10 place, and upon describing that event to me I 11 felt a very divine intuition that my path was 12 somehow tied in with Mr. Emery's path, and 13 although we had had a number of past 14 disagreements, I decided that I would work for 15 him and carry on with him as an activist. 16 348 Q Is that something that you heard about prior to 17 being employed by Mr. Emery? 18 A Yes. 19 349 Q So that led to your agreeing to be employed by 20 him? 21 A When he told me that, I thought that our paths 22 were aligned. 23 350 Q All right. And tell me what you mean when you 24 say you had "a divine intuition"? 25 A Well, part of the effect of cannabis and my use 88 1 of it as a sacrament is that it's a source of 2 wisdom and intuition that connects me with the 3 bigger collective aspects of consciousness which 4 I referred to earlier. 5 351 Q So that is the collective consciousness as 6 opposed to the collective unconscious -- 7 A Yeah. I disagree with Jung's term in that 8 respect. He refers to the collective 9 unconscious, and I suppose I was leading to that 10 and got distracted in my earlier explanation, 11 and I was saying how that cannabis had led in a 12 great way to the ability for reflective thinking 13 and individual reflective consciousness, but I 14 see something taking place with a larger 15 collective consciousness which is like a 16 god-like entity within the collective human 17 experience, and that -- that form of 18 consciousness is becoming aware of itself in 19 much the same way that we are self-reflecting 20 beings and that it interacts with us through 21 synchronicity, what some might call coincidence, 22 and sometimes people can be a conduit of that 23 information without even really realizing it 24 themselves. They may have their own purpose for 25 saying something, but that something is relevant 89 1 or leads to something relevant to the bigger 2 collective picture. 3 352 Q And this may occur to people who share or don't 4 share your world view as you were describing 5 with Mr. Emery? 6 A Well, you know, I would say that Mr. Emery's 7 consumption of the tree of life -- and I think 8 he would, you know, recognize cannabis as the 9 tree of life actually. 10 To tell you the truth, from my -- my 11 experience with Marc Emery, and I have a great 12 deal of experience with this individual, I would 13 suggest that he does. Although he would say 14 he's an atheist and make comments like that, I 15 think that Mr. Emery does have deeper spiritual 16 feelings about cannabis. 17 So, you know, whether, you know, you're 18 going to take his statement or mine, that's just 19 my view of my experience with Mr. Emery and 20 conversations that we've had, but I think he has 21 a distinctly spiritual view of cannabis, you 22 know, it would be considered a religious belief, 23 you know, and that he feels compelled by some 24 sort of greater value than his own personal 25 experience to take the particular path and make 90 1 the sacrifices that he's made. 2 353 Q When you attend the conferences -- sorry, or the 3 contests as in Amsterdam, are all the 4 participants in that contest members of the 5 Church of the Universe? 6 A No, they are not. 7 354 Q Are all the judges members of the Church of the 8 Universe? 9 A No. No. Probably -- I can't even think of any 10 other Church of the Universe members that have 11 been a Cannabis Cup judge or a judge in Marc 12 Emery's contest. 13 355 Q Mr. Emery himself is not a member of the Church 14 of the Universe? 15 A No, he's not. 16 356 Q All right. But you described yourself as a 17 member of the Church of the Universe? 18 A Yes. Yes, I do. 19 357 Q All right. And you became a minister of the 20 Church of the Universe? 21 A Yes, I think around 1991, 1990/91, right around 22 there, I believe. 23 358 Q Did you pay money in order to become a minister 24 of the Church of the Universe? 25 A No, I don't. They've been very generous to me. 91 1 359 Q All right. You're aware, though, that they do 2 collect money from some individuals in order to 3 grant a ministry? 4 A I believe that they request some money, but I 5 don't think that anybody has ever been refused 6 due to lack of those funds. 7 360 Q So they request money, but if someone is unable 8 to pay, they grant a ministry nonetheless? 9 A I believe so. I can't say -- you know, I 10 haven't -- I'm not part of that process, but 11 from what I know of it and from my own case. 12 361 Q Just -- you are aware they request money? 13 A I'm aware they request money. As far as I know, 14 that's not -- you know, not the defining factor 15 in the acceptance. 16 You know, it costs money to run a church 17 and administrative duties, and all these types 18 of things take time, so they request it, but as 19 far as I know, that's not a prerequisite that 20 you have it. 21 362 Q The key factor to become a member is to accept 22 the teachings of the church; is that right? 23 A I would say the fundamental factor for 24 membership and being a part of the church of the 25 tree of life is qualified by two statements: 92 1 cannabis is the tree of life, and God is God. 2 363 Q And the church of the tree of life that you 3 referred to, you mean Church of the Universe? 4 A Church of the Universe. I said that qualify the 5 Church of the Universe, the acceptance into the 6 religious view, is that cannabis is the tree of 7 life, not the church of cannabis, that cannabis 8 is the tree of life and that God is God. 9 364 Q And that means cannabis, the plant, is the tree 10 of life as you've described? 11 A Yes. 12 365 Q So that's the references in the Bible to the 13 tree of life are references to the cannabis 14 plant? 15 A Yes. 16 366 Q And to accept as a second -- 17 A Statement -- 18 367 Q -- statement that God is God? 19 A God is God. And that's like a pretty broad 20 statement. That can mean many things to many 21 individuals, and the church actually was 22 initiated through -- in 1969 I believe it was 23 formed, according to what I have learned from 24 Brother Walter Tucker, the founding father of 25 the Church of the Universe, was that in the 60s 93 1 they were holding gatherings, and they found 2 that when cannabis was consumed at these 3 gatherings that the topics of conversation 4 generally turned to the spiritual, and they 5 noticed this relationship, and then they started 6 using cannabis sacramentally and accepted it as 7 the tree of life, and this is, you know, a 8 common theme in the history of cannabis. 9 They talk about in India people discussing 10 the sacred scriptures of India under the 11 influence of cannabis. Same with Sufis in the 12 Islamic regions. They would consume cannabis 13 and discuss spiritual matters. 14 And this is like a common -- same with 15 Rastafarians. You know, they consume cannabis 16 and meditate on -- on the divine, you know, and 17 this is a common theme of cannabis consumption 18 and one of the things that has drawn it to me -- 19 me to it as a spiritual sacrament. 20 368 Q So you mentioned the Rastafarians. I just want 21 to be clear. The Church of the Universe is not 22 a Rastafarian church? 23 A No. The Rastafarian church recognizes Haile 24 Selassie, a former ruler of Ethiopia, king of 25 Ethiopia, and we have no interest in Haile 94 1 Selassie whatsoever. 2 We do identify with their sacramental use 3 of cannabis and share that with them, and in 4 that respect they are part of the nations that 5 are referred to in reference to the tree of 6 life. 7 369 Q And by "we" you mean whom exactly? 8 A The Church of the Universe. 9 370 Q So yourself and other members of the Church of 10 the Universe? 11 A Yeah. 12 371 Q But members of the Church of the Universe are 13 free to believe how they choose to believe as to 14 the God is God portion? 15 A God is God portion is an open debate and 16 relevant discussion. We're a living religion, a 17 gnostic religion based on an individual's 18 knowledge, and so all of that is open -- open 19 for discussion. 20 372 Q Would you say that members of the Church of the 21 Universe, given that they must believe that 22 cannabis is the tree of life, would say that 23 cannabis, therefore, is a true religion? 24 A I would say that cannabis is the central pillar 25 to the Church of the Universe in much the same 95 1 way the cross is the central pillar of the 2 Catholic church. 3 373 Q Are church members encouraged to use cannabis 4 and all of its fruits? 5 A Yes. 6 374 Q And that's something that you do? 7 A Yes. 8 375 Q M'mm-hmm. By wearing it? 9 A Yes. Eating it. 10 376 Q Eating it? 11 A Yeah. 12 377 Q Writing on it? 13 A Yes. 14 378 Q That's hemp paper, I take it? 15 A Hemp paper. 16 379 Q Wearing it would be hemp clothing? 17 A M'mm-hmm. 18 380 Q Eating it would be foods? 19 A Yeah, hemp seeds. 20 381 Q Many of which are available at the grocery 21 store? 22 A Yes. 23 382 Q Did you and Ms. Chester used to sell hemp seed 24 products? 25 A Yes. I had, with Ms. Chester, the first 96 1 commercial production since prohibition of hemp 2 seed food products, now a major huge industry, 3 called Mama Indica's Hemp Seed Treats, and I 4 wholesaled a variety of hemp food products 5 across North America and internationally. 6 As well, we made hemp clothes, hemp paper 7 pads and other hemp items as well. 8 383 Q And when did this take place? 9 A This was from about 1992 to about 1998, I think. 10 384 Q So after you became a reverend of the Church of 11 the Universe? 12 A Yeah. 13 385 Q And was this part of your sacramental use of 14 cannabis? 15 A It was part of my religious duty to bring forth 16 the fruits of the tree of life which were 17 illegal at that time, prohibited, you know; hemp 18 was a prohibited product. 19 Initially when I first had my revelation of 20 cannabis -- and as far as I know, at that time 21 in 1990 there were no other cannabis activists. 22 It was illegal to put forth writing suggesting 23 the legalization of cannabis or how to grow 24 cannabis. Magazines like High Times were 25 illegal grow books. Literature, even 97 1 conceivably my own books would have been 2 prohibited under the prohibitions of that time 3 period. 4 386 Q Until 1998? 5 A No. That got changed. You know, legal hemp, I 6 believe, happened in 1996. The ban on 7 publications, I'm not sure of the date of that. 8 Might have been like '93/94. 9 387 Q M'mm-hmm. 10 A Yeah, I'd have to go back and research that to 11 give you the exact dates of when different 12 things fell. I've had a 20-year career in 13 cannabis reform, and a lot has taken place. I 14 don't know the specific dates like that. 15 388 Q Why did you stop producing these goods in 1998? 16 A Well, for one thing, the industrial hemp 17 movement outgrew my kind of home-based business. 18 As well, I was like -- I probably made enough of 19 those hemp seed bars myself to fill this room 20 like 10 times over, renting a bakery and 21 producing it. 22 389 Q So you did millions of them? 23 A Yeah. Like I sold a lot of these things. I did 24 it over a number of years. It's hard to put a 25 volume on exactly, you know, how many, but I'm 98 1 assuming, you know, I don't know, about 10 2 times, maybe 5 times, I don't know. You know, 3 that's an estimation based on, you know, memory. 4 390 Q You said, sorry, 10 times, 5 times? 5 A 10 times. Not 10 times. I mean 10 times the 6 size of this room. Like, you know, each pack of 7 24 was about this big. I don't know what the 8 weight of it was. 9 391 Q So that's roughly the size of a brick? 10 A A little bigger than a brick. You know, maybe 11 two bricks side by side and stacked and then, 12 you know, up to the roof of this room. 13 392 Q And the room is what, I don't know, 10 feet by 14 15 feet? 15 A Yeah, but like I say, this is based on a memory 16 of like six or seven years of work and exporting 17 and importing and all that type of stuff, so 18 it's hard for me to put a really quantative 19 [sic] value on that. The best I can do is come 20 up with some figure based on my memory of 21 events. It may be half that amount, maybe a 22 little more. I couldn't really say, but a lot. 23 And I was -- I was getting really tired of 24 making these hemp seed bars, and often when I 25 would sell stuff I would end up with some cash, 99 1 and I'd be like, well, I'm going to focus on 2 researching my book, and I would let the 3 business end of things slide down and stuff like 4 that, so I wasn't the best of business people at 5 that time. 6 I'm more proficient in that respect now 7 from learning from that experience, but I was 8 more focused on wanting to write my books and go 9 forth with those ideas, and I felt that that was 10 something I was better qualified for in the face 11 of these huge, much larger businesses that have 12 given birth to the modern hemp industry. 13 393 Q When was your first book Green Gold published? 14 A I think that came out in 1995. 15 394 Q Does one become a member of the Church of the 16 Universe simply by going to their website and 17 signing up? 18 A Well, what happened for me was I didn't have the 19 internet until really 2000, so I had never seen 20 the Church of the Universe website for the -- 21 probably the first decade, close to a decade 22 that I was involved with them. 23 What happened for me was, after I had my 24 own personal religious revelation that cannabis 25 was the tree of life as described in my 100 1 affidavit -- 2 395 Q I'm sorry, I'll just stop you there. I want to 3 be sure I'm at the right place in your 4 affidavit. 5 Is this what you describe at paragraph -- 6 hold on -- 13? 7 A Well, I would say the statement starts in 8 paragraph 10 and goes into paragraph -- 9 continues through paragraph 10 through 20 10 really, you know. 11 396 Q All right. But after that incident in 1990, you 12 were starting to tell me how you came to know 13 about the Church of the Universe. 14 A The Church of the Universe. Well, as it 15 happened, the first commercial importer of hemp 16 cloth into Canada, North America, was a Chinese 17 businessman by the name of Alex Shum, and he 18 produced these nifty denim-looking hemp shirts 19 that Willie Nelson was retailing, and I went to 20 meet with Mr. Shum at his Vancouver office, and 21 when I was in his Vancouver office there was an 22 image on the wall of an old man between some pot 23 plants pulled apart like this with his grinning 24 face and large beard. 25 397 Q You put your hands beside your face and 101 1 pulled them to the side? 2 A Face and I pulled them apart, so he's pulling 3 the plants apart like this, say, and with his 4 face sticking in between the pot plants, and it 5 said "Church of the Universe, tree of life 6 sacrament," and when I read that I was like, 7 hey, those guys know. 8 398 Q What year was that? 9 A This was like 1990/91, around that area, shortly 10 sometime after -- not long after I had had my 11 initial religious experience. 12 399 Q Was it in Vancouver? 13 A This was in Vancouver. 14 400 Q What brought you to Vancouver? 15 A As I stated earlier in my response, I was 16 visiting the first importer of hemp cloth, Alex 17 Shum, who had an office in Vancouver. 18 401 Q And why were you visiting him? 19 A In order to acquire some hemp shirts and meet 20 with him to find out what was happening in 21 regards to hemp cloth, find out prices of cloth 22 and stuff like that. 23 402 Q And this was because you had an interest in hemp 24 prior to becoming aware of the Church of the 25 Universe? 102 1 A Well, prior to becoming aware of the Church of 2 the Universe I was already using cannabis 3 sacramentally because I'd had this experience 4 that cannabis was the tree of life myself 5 independently without any prior knowledge of the 6 Church of the Universe, without any prior 7 knowledge that other people recognized cannabis 8 as the tree of life. 9 When I had the initial experience, I did 10 think about people like Bob Marley and 11 Rastafarians, which weren't a big part of my own 12 personal life at that time, but I recognized 13 that this in fact must be what these individuals 14 were speaking of in -- 15 403 Q You did research -- sorry. 16 A Well, after the experience I can tell you what 17 took place. If you'd like me to describe my 18 religious experience and what led to my 19 discovery of the Church of the Universe, I'm 20 only too happy to do so. 21 404 Q Well, Mr. Bennett, I really just want you to 22 answer my question. 23 A Well, that's what I'm trying to do. 24 MR. TOUSAW: I think that's what he was doing. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 103 1 405 Q And my question was, did you research the 2 Rastafarians, not tell me about your experience. 3 MR. TOUSAW: Let me interpose an objection. He was 4 answering the question you asked before that, 5 which was what led him to Vancouver and the 6 interest in hemp. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And I asked him -- 8 MR. TOUSAW: And he was answering that question, and 9 then you interposed the new question about the 10 Church of the Universe and Rastafarianism. 11 A Prior to my religious experience involving 12 cannabis I did not research the Rastafarian 13 religion. The only familiarity I really had 14 with them were in music, hearing music about 15 them and seeing the odd maybe music video and a 16 very minor understanding that these individuals 17 used cannabis as a religious sacrament but not 18 really any sort of detail or knowledge and not 19 any sort of real detail or knowledge of the 20 Bible itself at that time. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 22 406 Q But you were using cannabis prior to 1990. 23 You've told me you were growing it since 1985. 24 A Yes. Yes, I was. 25 407 Q And you were using it recreationally? 104 1 A Yes. 2 408 Q Every day? 3 A There was periods of time where I quit for a 4 couple years, I didn't smoke any cannabis, but 5 as far as every day, yeah, probably most days, 6 you know, sure. 7 409 Q Are there periods of time between 1985 and 1989 8 when you quit? 9 A No. The times that I quit would've been prior 10 to 1985. 11 410 Q When did you first smoke cannabis? 12 A The first time I smoked cannabis was probably 13 1974. 14 411 Q How old were you? 15 A 12. 16 412 Q All right. And then after that you continued to 17 use it? 18 A On and off, yeah. Like there was times where I 19 was using it definitely not every day, times 20 where I quit and didn't use it at all and drank 21 alcohol, and when I was with my first wife, when 22 I first met her, I was a surfer on the west 23 coast of Vancouver Island, I did use cannabis, 24 and she was a very hard core athlete, a 25 triathlete, and on her behalf I quit for a 105 1 couple of years. 2 413 Q This is Ms. Chester? 3 A Ms. Chester, yes. 4 414 Q But that would've been before 1985? 5 A That would've been before 1985, yes, that's what 6 I'm talking about. 7 415 Q All right. So between 1985 and 1989 were you 8 using cannabis or smoking it, vaporizing it 9 every day? 10 A Well, there was -- I don't know if there were 11 any vaporizers around then, but, yeah, I smoked 12 cannabis. I can't say if I smoked it every day 13 because it was like over 20 years ago, but I 14 smoked it, and I grew it, and I -- yeah, I had 15 cannabis, so it was around. I couldn't say 16 whether I smoked every day or not. Probably 17 most days. 18 416 Q You've described yourself in that period as 19 being quite a stoner; is that right? 20 A Well, yeah, I guess. I don't really have a 21 negative connotation with the term "stoner," 22 but, yeah, I was using cannabis. "Stoner" is a 23 term applied to somebody that uses cannabis. 24 417 Q But you have describe yourself as quite a stoner 25 by which I take you to mean you used a lot? 106 1 A Yeah. I don't know. Compared to what? 2 Compared to a Rastafarian? No. Compared to my 3 intake now? Maybe a little bit less. I can't 4 really say. It was like 20 years ago. 5 You know, I certainly wasn't like -- when I 6 was growing it I wasn't like weighing what I 7 took or -- you know what I mean? I just had it 8 and it was there, and sometimes it ran out and 9 it wasn't there. In those periods sometimes I 10 didn't have cannabis. 11 418 Q When you were growing it between 1985 and 1989, 12 were you growing more than eight plants? 13 A Yeah. At times I grew like more plants but 14 small plants, you know, so maybe 16 this big. 15 419 Q So what is that? A couple feet high? 16 A A couple feet tall, yeah. A couple feet, sure. 17 Or less, a couple feet or less. And so I'd grow 18 smaller plants but basically achieving about the 19 same amount as I was achieving off the 20 eight plants. 21 I tried a number of different types of 22 growing methods. I grew over a long period of 23 time. 24 420 Q All right. And paragraph 10 of your affidavit, 25 I will just get you to turn there, you say: 107 1 "In 1990 I first learned of the many uses 2 of cannabis besides smoking it." 3 Do you see that? 4 A Yes. 5 421 Q All right. So that's something you learned of 6 before or after the experience you describe? 7 A That is something that I learned of prior to my 8 religious experience. 9 422 Q All right. And you describe in that paragraph 10 engaging in discussions in advocacy with respect 11 to cannabis to solve environmental and some job 12 issues. Do you see that? 13 A Yeah. I would have to say that I've made a 14 broader statement here because my religious 15 experience happened in 1990 and that I formed 16 Patriotic Canadians for Hemp and I learned about 17 the industrial applications of hemp and then 18 became an activist promoting it after my 19 religious experience. 20 423 Q So what is your explanation then for putting 21 this statement in this part of your affidavit 22 which -- 23 A Well, it's all in 1990. I don't say that it 24 happened -- "... I first learned of the many 25 uses of cannabis besides smoking it," which was 108 1 part of -- at the time I was living in an area 2 caught in a battle between loggers and 3 environmentalists, and with knowledge of how 4 cannabis in the form of hemp could change things 5 dramatically, for example, 50 percent of the 6 trees cut by pulp replaced by -- this is true 7 because I'm referring to the year 1990. I did 8 not say that I'd had my religious experience yet 9 because I'm just setting up that, but my 10 advocacy and my activism started in 1990 after 11 my religious experience in 1990. 12 I'm making no clear difference that between 13 my 1990 religious experience and this. I'm 14 making a broad statement about my activism and 15 events in 1990, but my activism after learning 16 about industrial hemp -- it all happened in a 17 very short period of time -- began after my 18 thing. 19 I might have even learned like about the 20 industrial uses of hemp maybe a month or less 21 before my religious experience. I was thinking 22 about it because I was living out in the 23 Clayoquot Sound there in Ucluelet and my brother 24 was a camp chairman for the loggers union, so I 25 saw a lot of what was happening and thinking 109 1 people had to do something, and smoking 2 marihuana and looking at the bald mountains out 3 there and thinking, well, somebody's got to say 4 something about hemp, and then when I had my 5 religious experience, I could no longer just sit 6 there and do nothing. I knew that cannabis was 7 the tree of life, but I knew that I had to 8 pursue this for the benefit of my own soul. 9 424 Q What month did your experience take place in? 10 A I believe it was December, but again we're 11 talking like 20 years ago. 12 425 Q So you had your experience in December of 1990 13 and then immediately afterwards in that same 14 year began advocating? 15 A Yes. Yes. Yes. Like within like -- basically 16 what happened was a friend of mine recorded this 17 program off of the television called The 90s, 18 and this was just right at the beginning of 19 1990, and this program had an episode about the 20 industrial uses of hemp, and he told me, you 21 know, we can make all our paper out of pot, we 22 can make all our clothes, and I was like, no, 23 that's not true, if that were true I would know 24 about this, and what is hemp, and was in 25 complete denial about it. 110 1 He played the documentary for me, and it 2 had a lot of file footage from prior to 3 prohibition about the uses of hemp and 4 interviewed a number of hemp advocates, and I 5 was like, whoa, I didn't know that, and then I 6 went to the library, and I began looking up 7 references to hemp to see if there was any truth 8 to this because of all the other books were 9 banned and unavailable, and I did find that in 10 fact there was an element of truth, that there 11 had been these industrial applications of hemp, 12 and I started thinking about this in the context 13 of the controversy that was happening in my town 14 surrounding logging of the last old-growth rain 15 forests, and then -- 16 You know, and I should point out that it 17 was a number of events that led to this 18 religious experience, and one of those was the 19 Mount Cashel Orphanage controversy where the 20 Catholic priests were exposed for molesting 21 children. 22 426 Q Well, stop there for a moment because I don't 23 want to move on to another event without first 24 understanding the first one. 25 When did you watch this documentary your 111 1 friend showed you? 2 A Oh, within -- I'd say within about a month, from 3 my memory, a month, two weeks, prior to having 4 this religious experience. 5 427 Q So in November of 2009 or December -- sorry, of 6 1990? 7 A Yeah. You know -- you know, you're asking me 8 about events that happened 20 years ago. I 9 would say probably November, December, but I 10 just -- I just can't address it for sure. You 11 know what I mean? Like it might have even 12 been -- yeah, yeah, within about a month of it, 13 for sure. 14 428 Q All right. So in paragraph 10 of your 15 affidavit, your explanation is that in November 16 you learned of the many uses -- 17 A No, that's not what I say in paragraph 10. 18 429 Q Sorry. Well, when do you? 19 A Well, I say -- if you're referring to 20 paragraph 10, I say in 1990. 21 430 Q Right. 22 A November doesn't appear in there. 23 431 Q Right. And your explanation today is that was 24 in November? 25 A I'm thinking -- 112 1 MR. TOUSAW: Hold on. I'm going to object. The 2 witness has asked [sic] and answered this 3 question. I believe his testimony is quite 4 clear that he can't pin it down to any specific 5 date. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 7 432 Q It was either November or December, but in any 8 event, two months -- two weeks, sorry, to a 9 month before the experience you describe in 10 paragraphs 12 and 13? 11 A Yeah, I would say that that's likely correct, 12 you know what I mean? But as I stated, this is 13 20 years ago. 14 433 Q All right. But your testimony is crystal clear 15 and you're certain that this is something you 16 learned of before the experience you describe in 17 paragraphs 12 and 13? 18 A Yes. It's one of the events that led to the 19 experience in paragraph 13. 20 434 Q All right. And you say, however, that your 21 discussion and advocacy for the use of cannabis 22 to solve the environmental versus job issues -- 23 that's the last sentence in paragraph 10 of your 24 affidavit -- 25 A M'mm-hmm. 113 1 435 Q -- that that is something that postdates the 2 experience you describe in paragraphs 12 and 13? 3 A Yes. 4 436 Q All right. And your explanation for placing 5 this incident or this fact before your 6 description of events at paragraphs 12 and 13 7 is? 8 A I'm just making a broad statement about 1990 and 9 my advocacy for cannabis, and yeah, yeah, that's 10 basically it. 11 437 Q So how is it that in paragraph 12 you then say 12 "during this period of time"? Are you not 13 referring to the period of time when you were an 14 advocate for cannabis? 15 A I am referring to the same period of time. 16 438 Q All right. So it was during the period of time 17 when you were an advocate for cannabis that the 18 events set out in paragraphs 12 and 13 -- 19 A No. During the period of time I was working as 20 a night watchman. That's what it says in 21 paragraph 12. During this period of time I was 22 working as a night watchman. I worked 23 throughout 1990 and past 1990 as a night 24 watchman. So it was all during the period of 25 time. 114 1 439 Q All right. So you're telling me your affidavit 2 is out of chronological order essentially? 3 A No, because -- 4 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. The affidavit -- I 5 mean it speaks for itself. It says what it 6 says. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 MR. TOUSAW: The witness has explained what the 9 paragraphs means. 10 A Yeah. 1990 is a broad statement about the year 11 of 1990. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 13 440 Q And you became an advocate how many days after 14 the experience you describe in paragraphs 12 and 15 13? 16 A Oh, 12 and 13, I would say that that was the 17 life-changing moment in my life and that my 18 experience of life before that was 19 quantatively [sic] altered and changed like no 20 other event in my life and that the next day 21 after that an activist was born. 22 441 Q All right. And an activist was born who was an 23 activist for the discussion and advocacy of the 24 use of cannabis to solve those environmental and 25 job issues? 115 1 A Let me be clear. The industrial application are 2 but some of the fruits of the tree of life. On 3 my way to seeing the greater picture of the 4 liberation of the tree of life for greater 5 humanity I've always seen that certain steps 6 needed to be taken. 7 One of them was establishing the industrial 8 applications of cannabis and how that could save 9 our planet, and that seemed like the pertinent 10 one to bring to people at that time, but also 11 coinciding with that time I was promoting the 12 religious use of cannabis, writing articles, 13 doing posters regarding the religious use of 14 cannabis, and -- 15 442 Q When did you write your first article? 16 A The first published article I wrote was in 1993, 17 but I was already researching it, and I had a 18 poster regarding cannabis and religion that was 19 probably published in, you know, 1991/1992 20 referring to events that occurred 18 to 19, 21 20 years ago. It's hard for me to put exact 22 dates on -- on those particular things. 23 443 Q And that was your poster describing cannabis as 24 the tree of life? 25 A Yes. I've done two different versions of that. 116 1 444 Q Right. And essentially the poster says 2 cannabis, the tree of life on it? 3 A It has a centre piece with a cannabis plant 4 marking cannabis as the tree of life, but it 5 also has images of Pythagorus, images of 6 Zoroaster, images of the god Shiva, images of 7 Buddha, images of Moses and Jesus, images of 8 Helena Blavatsky and a variety of other quotes 9 and references all regarding the spiritual use 10 of cannabis and how cannabis is the tree of 11 life. 12 445 Q And that reflects the research you published in 13 1993 about the references to cannabis in these 14 spiritual teachings? 15 A It represents some of it. There's stuff in the 16 poster that's not in the article. There's stuff 17 in the article that's not in the poster. But 18 it's all part and parcel of, you know, what led 19 to writing my books and other elements, for 20 sure. 21 446 Q So it's all part and parcel of setting up 22 cannabis as the tree of life as written in the 23 Bible and in these other -- 24 A M'mm-hmm. 25 447 Q -- spiritual practices; is that right? 117 1 A Yes. 2 448 Q Yes. All right. What does Patriotic Canadians 3 for Hemp do? Is it still existent? 4 A No. That group I think I formed, you know, 5 sometime -- I don't know. Yeah. I guess I 6 formed it right around the end of 1990. Yeah, 7 it was like largely I was distributing 8 information regarding how hemp could replace 9 trees, old-growth trees for paper, how hemp can 10 replace soil-depleting cotton and things like 11 that. 12 I put out a newsletter, Patriotic Canadians 13 for Hemp, and sometimes I had articles in there 14 referring to religious stuff. Some of those may 15 have been printed prior to 1993, I guess, you 16 know, in hindsight, so yeah, they -- they -- I 17 may have had some shorter pieces regarding the 18 role of cannabis in religion in some of those 19 earlier publications of Patriotic Canadians for 20 Hemp, but I published that. 21 When I was referring to the 1993 article I 22 was referring to something somebody else 23 published. 24 449 Q That's what Patriotic Canadians for Hemp did, 25 they spread publications? 118 1 A They spread -- I would, say, go to universities. 2 I would go to events like Earth Day, set up a 3 table, bring out samples of hemp cloth, samples 4 of hemp paper, hemp seeds, and then I would have 5 information regarding the role of cannabis and, 6 you know, uses of cannabis. 7 450 Q And you believed that cannabis was the tree of 8 life at the time? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 451 Q When did the organization cease to exist? 11 A Oh, I think it kind of became defunct by 12 1995/1996. 13 452 Q Was it ever formally incorporated as a 14 charitable -- 15 A No, no -- 16 453 Q -- organization? 17 A -- it was just -- it was just a very loose -- 18 MR. TOUSAW: Just let her finish the question before 19 you start to answer. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 21 454 Q Was it ever formally incorporated as a 22 charitable organization? 23 A No, it wasn't. 24 455 Q All right. You were starting to describe it as 25 just a very loose -- can you explain -- 119 1 A Well, it was just something I formed myself and 2 stuck a name on and invited people to join the 3 mailing list so I could circulate information. 4 456 Q So essentially the organization was you, and 5 then the mailing list was the people to whom you 6 would disseminate the information? 7 A Yes, me and my first wife Tracy Chester. 8 457 Q Right. And that was the wife with whom you sold 9 products made from cannabis as well? 10 A Yes, that's right. 11 458 Q Now, you were starting to describe how you 12 joined the Church of the Universe, but I'm 13 actually more curious as to whether you know how 14 people currently can join the Church of the 15 Universe? 16 A I'm not involved with the administration 17 elements of the Church of the Universe. I've 18 already been in it, so I don't -- I don't, you 19 know, sign people up. 20 Generally when people ask me about the 21 Church of the Universe and how they can get 22 involved, I refer them to the Church of the 23 Universe website, invite them to contact Brother 24 Walter and Brother Michael to find out more. 25 459 Q Who is Brother Michael? 120 1 A Brother Michael Baldasaro. 2 460 Q And Brother Michael Baldasaro, is he also a 3 founder of the Church of the Universe? 4 A I don't know if he was there in 1969, but he's 5 definitely, you know, one of the two key figures 6 in the Church of the Universe. 7 461 Q When you gave your talk on Vancouver Island that 8 you referred to earlier in your testimony today, 9 that's the talk you gave this year, is it? 10 A Yes. 11 462 Q Did you give that talk what month? 12 A I believe that was March. 13 463 Q March of this year? March 2010? 14 A Yeah. Yeah, I think so. 15 464 Q And you were asked a question about joining the 16 Church of the Universe, weren't you? 17 A Yes. Yes, I was. 18 465 Q Do you remember what your answer was? 19 A I think I said it's pretty loose. You just call 20 the brothers up and express your belief in 21 cannabis being the tree of life and go from 22 there. 23 466 Q Yeah. Actually I think your answer was: 24 "It's all pretty loose, you know. You 25 just pretty much write them a letter and, 121 1 hey, welcome aboard." 2 Is that right? 3 A That was about after, I think, a bunch of other 4 statements about the Church of the Universe, and 5 that's pretty much it. 6 If you accept that cannabis is the tree of 7 life much like if a Christian accepts that Jesus 8 is their saviour, they're born again. If you 9 accept that cannabis is the tree of life, you 10 make a statement to that effect that you believe 11 cannabis is the tree of life. That's enough to 12 get you in the Church of the Universe, as far as 13 I know. 14 467 Q So as you put it, "hey, welcome aboard"? 15 A Yes. Of course. We welcome new members to the 16 Church of the Universe. It's a very important 17 religion, and we invite all sorts of people. 18 You yourself are welcome to check out the site 19 iamm.com and join the Church of the Universe if 20 you so feel called. 21 468 Q Www.iamm.com? 22 A That's correct. 23 469 Q As a reverend of the church, what does your 24 ministry require of you? 25 A Well, my particular role in the church I would 122 1 guess -- you know, they don't ever ask -- 2 they've never asked me for anything. It's 3 all -- all been just what I've given, what 4 they've given, but I see my role in the Church 5 of the Universe, they consider me a doctor of 6 theology, I think is the name that Brother 7 Walter and Brother Michael have bestowed upon 8 me, is to research the role of sacramental 9 cannabis in history and document that and help 10 to document the role of religious cannabis use 11 which we ascribe by and which we see as part of 12 our own historical tradition. 13 470 Q You don't say that in your affidavit, do you? 14 A No, I don't really think I needed to with what 15 was requested and asked of it. You know, I 16 would have been happy to explain in detail any 17 aspects or questions that Health Canada had 18 requested of me in regards to more information, 19 but I didn't see that as specifically needed or 20 stated. 21 I do make reference to my books and those 22 being the product of my inspirational source of 23 cannabis, but I suppose -- 24 471 Q Your book -- sorry. 25 A Yeah. Let me finish. I suppose I consider my 123 1 books and my articles and my lectures the role 2 of my particular ministry. 3 472 Q And there's nothing in your books about the 4 Church of the Universe, is there? 5 A This is a -- oh, I don't know if I've mentioned 6 that. Actually I do think I mention that I'm in 7 the Church of the Universe somewhere in both 8 those books, but I can't say for sure because I 9 wrote them a long time ago. 10 473 Q And by "both those books" you mean? 11 A Green Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic 12 & Religion and Sex, Drugs, Violence and the 13 Bible. I do think somewhere in there -- I'd 14 have to -- you know, I'd have to go through and 15 read the whole book, but I can't say for sure, 16 but I think that I do mention it. But the 17 purpose of the books -- let me be clear on 18 this -- is not to promote the Church of the 19 Universe. The purpose of the books is to 20 promote that cannabis is the tree of life. 21 I play a similar role to what I do in the 22 Church of the Universe in a variety of cannabis 23 religions internationally and serve as a source 24 of information in that regard. 25 So I've never seen the bigger religious 124 1 mission and message of cannabis being the tree 2 of life necessarily being the promotion of the 3 Church of the Universe, which is what I 4 personally belong to, but somebody doesn't need 5 to belong to the Church of the Universe to use 6 cannabis as a sacrament. They can belong to any 7 these other religions, and I respect all of 8 them. 9 It's not about pushing any particular 10 religion. We can see what's happened with that 11 course of action in today's world with entities 12 like the Roman Catholic Church and how horrific 13 such entities can be. 14 My -- my view has been more that anybody 15 can use cannabis as a religious sacrament. 16 Here's the history of it; you're part of that 17 religious history. As soon as you give thanks 18 and acknowledge cannabis is your sacrament, 19 you're tied in with that very first person that 20 did that say 5,500 years ago from archeological 21 evidence in the Ukraine, and it's all part of 22 that continual religious tradition which is 23 older than any existing religious tradition. 24 474 Q Getting back to your affidavit, you said you 25 didn't realize it was expected of you or 125 1 anticipated of you that you would describe your 2 role in the Church of the Universe in the 3 affidavit. What did you think your affidavit 4 required of you? 5 A I think it required of me to make a statement 6 about my religious beliefs and my use of 7 cannabis as a religious sacrament. 8 475 Q And where did your understanding of what your 9 affidavit required of you come from? 10 MR. TOUSAW: Well, I'm going to -- 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, he hasn't answered it yet. 12 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object and caution the 13 witness that he should not tread into 14 lawyer/client privilege. 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And should he go there, I won't 16 pursue further. 17 MR. TOUSAW: Of course. 18 A Well, I knew that there was an exemption process 19 out there, and I thought I want a religious 20 exemption for cannabis. You know, I've used 21 cannabis as a sacrament. My understanding is 22 there's freedom of religion. I'd thought about 23 numbers of ways of presenting a case regarding 24 that and trying to achieve that, and I saw these 25 medical exemptions and the process that took 126 1 place with that, and my understanding of freedom 2 of religion was that my religious rights are 3 being violated, and so I looked for a source to 4 remedy that situation. 5 I contacted Mr. Tousaw -- 6 MR. TOUSAW: Well, I'm going to stop you there 7 because you can't tread into any discussions 8 that we had. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And, Mr. Bennett, I don't want to 10 hear about anything that you said to Mr. Tousaw 11 or that Mr. Tousaw said to you in the context of 12 seeking solicitor/client advice. If you had 13 casual conversations about other matters, that's 14 very different, but I take this to be a question 15 of legal advice. 16 476 Q However, before you contacted Mr. Tousaw you 17 talked to a Mr. Pearson, didn't you? 18 A Ed Pearson, yes. 19 477 Q Yeah. So that was well before you got in touch 20 with Mr. Tousaw? 21 A Yeah. We talked about possibly doing something, 22 me and Mr. Pearson. We never followed through, 23 but we had some discussions. 24 478 Q That was years before you talked to Mr. Tousaw? 25 A Yes. Yes, it was. 127 1 479 Q When was that? Let me help you out. Was it 2 before 2005? 3 A Yeah, I guess maybe 2004/2005. I don't know. 4 It was a while ago. 5 480 Q It was shortly after the Malmo-Levine decision 6 of the Supreme Court of Canada, wasn't it? 7 A Oh, you know, let me be clear. In regards to 8 pursuing a charter challenge and freedom of 9 religion, I've been thinking about this since 10 1990. 11 481 Q Oh. And what brought on the thinking about 12 this? 13 A My religious experience. 14 482 Q So from your religious experience, which is the 15 experience you describe in paragraphs 12 to 13, 16 that's what you're referring to when you talk 17 about your religious experience? 18 A Yeah. 19 483 Q From that you got the idea of a charter 20 challenge. Can you explain the connection? 21 A Well, first of all, I got the idea that cannabis 22 was the tree of life. 23 484 Q M'mm-hmm. 24 A Then I joined the Church of the Universe. 25 485 Q M'mm-hmm. 128 1 A Then I thought, you know, just about pursuing 2 the idea, but even in Green Gold the Tree of 3 Life: Marijuana in Magic & Religion, we publish 4 a US thing regarding the freedom of religion in 5 the US and certain religious rights in the 6 appendix to Green Gold. 7 So I have long thought that my religious 8 rights were being violated. It was more about 9 having the right way to pursue that and the 10 finances needed to pursue that. 11 486 Q You're not a lawyer? 12 A No. 13 487 Q So I'm still not following. Was there a 14 particular piece of information that came to 15 your attention that led you to believe your 16 rights were being violated? 17 A I guess it was just an overall acknowledgment 18 that religions were supposed to be protected, 19 so, yeah, I don't know, I might have heard about 20 earlier cases or something, like Tim Leary's 21 case or Rastafarian cases. 22 To tell you the truth, I can't recall the 23 exact moment that -- that I knew that that was 24 what I wanted to do. I can tell you it was 25 prior to writing Green Gold the Tree of Life: 129 1 Marijuana in Magic & Religion which came out in 2 1995, and I have been an expert witness in 3 another case involving a Church of the Universe 4 member, Reverend Ian Hunter, now deceased, the 5 late Reverend Ian Hunter. 6 488 Q Is he a relation to the Mr. Hunter who's sworn 7 an affidavit in this proceeding? 8 A No, no relation that I know of. As far as I 9 know there's no -- no relation. 10 489 Q And when was that? 11 A I think that was 1996 maybe. 12 490 Q M'mm-hmm. 13 A I can't swear to that because I would have to go 14 back again. It's another situation where we're 15 dealing with events of more than a decade ago. 16 It's hard to put exact dates on it without doing 17 documentation, but I could certainly provide you 18 with the dates for that. 19 491 Q So you didn't have the mechanism to pursue this 20 interest in a legal challenge until when? 21 A I suppose at that time I saw my role as likely 22 being that of an expert witness in somebody 23 else's case, and there wasn't -- I didn't know 24 of any sort of exemption process at that time, 25 didn't seem to be around that I was aware of. 130 1 I didn't really become aware of that 2 process until the MMAR and the situations 3 involving that. So I thought then it would 4 probably likely be more of a criminal case. I 5 didn't really see myself being involved with 6 that because part of my own personal -- my 7 personal religious revelation was that I was 8 never to sell cannabis, ever, and that's 9 something I've held to since my religious 10 experience and that I best would serve the tree 11 of life by researching it and learning about it 12 and spreading that information and that was my 13 role to play, not the role of a provider of 14 sacrament, more of a provider of information 15 regarding the sacrament. 16 492 Q You have shared cannabis with others, haven't 17 you? 18 A Oh, yes, yes. I share cannabis with others 19 regularly. 20 493 Q That's something you do frequently? 21 A I couldn't say frequently. I don't really share 22 a lot of cannabis these days. I do share it on 23 occasion. I don't -- yeah, I share it, but I 24 couldn't say that it's something I'm even doing 25 every day, sharing it. 131 1 494 Q Do you have friends or acquaintances over to 2 your home and share cannabis there? 3 A Not that often. 4 495 Q But it happens? 5 A Occasionally. However, if granted an 6 application and my application disallows me to 7 share cannabis, I suppose I would be willing to 8 follow and abide by that. 9 496 Q Did you draft your statutory declaration which 10 is Exhibit A -- I think it's part of Exhibit A 11 to the affidavit of Jocelyn Kula in 12 this proceeding? 13 A Maybe you can show me that. 14 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to interpose an objection. I 15 think that treads into lawyer/client privileged 16 communications. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, we don't know. Mr. Bennett 18 said he's worked with Mr. Pearson on this. I 19 don't think Mr. Pearson is a lawyer. 20 MR. TOUSAW: Well, you can ask if Mr. Pearson 21 assisted in the drafting of that statutory 22 declaration. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I'm asking if Mr. Bennett 24 drafted his statutory declaration. I don't 25 think Mr. Bennett is a lawyer. I'm fully 132 1 entitled to ask him about that, and I'd rather 2 you didn't interject with objections 3 anticipating answers that haven't been given. 4 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object when I feel there's 5 an objection to made. 6 THE WITNESS: So I'm not really sure where we're at. 7 You're objecting that I answer? 8 MR. TOUSAW: I'm objecting to the extent that the 9 question treads into lawyer/client 10 communications. 11 I think she's perfectly entitled to ask if 12 Mr. Pearson assisted you in drafting the 13 statutory declaration, and you're perfectly 14 entitled to answer that question. 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I'm actually asking if 16 Mr. Bennett drafted the statutory declaration 17 himself. 18 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object to that question. 19 Mr. Bennett has signed the statutory 20 declaration. You can him ask questions about 21 what's in the statutory declaration. He's 22 affirmed that it's true by signing it, and 23 you're perfectly entitled to ask him questions 24 about its contents, but the manner of it being 25 drafted treads too close to lawyer/client 133 1 privilege. I'm not going to allow him to answer 2 those questions. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 497 Q Mr. Bennett, when did you first prepare a draft 5 of a request for an exemption under section 56? 6 A You know, I really can't recall how far Ed and I 7 got along. We may have put something together. 8 As I recall, it is not in this document, but 9 yeah, I really can't recall, and, you know, the 10 main reason we didn't pursue it at that time was 11 my wife was going through a very controversial 12 case regarding extradition into the United 13 States and I did not want to do anything, even 14 regarding my own religious freedoms, that 15 jeopardized that situation. 16 498 Q How long did your wife's controversial case 17 take? 18 A Oh, a couple years before I met her and then 19 throughout the time we were together, so 20 probably from, I'm thinking, and this is again 21 going based on memory of events that took place 22 over a decade ago, I think from 1997/1998 to 23 about 2005/2006 maybe. 24 499 Q This is Ms. Chester? 25 A This is Renee Danielle Boje. 134 1 500 Q Your second wife? 2 A My second wife, yes. 3 501 Q The plan you were discussing with Mr. Pearson, 4 what was it? 5 A As I recall, I think we were going to try to 6 acquire an exemption 56. I don't know if it was 7 called that then or what it would've been 8 called. 9 As evidenced in the documents provided by 10 Health Canada, a couple of other associates of 11 mine and brothers in the church, Brother Walter 12 and Brother Michael, also had done something 13 along those lines, and Mr. Pearson may have 14 helped with that as well, but yeah, I just kind 15 of put it all on the back burner, and then after 16 my wife's case ended, shortly thereafter, she 17 left, likely due to a lot of the stress that we 18 had been under through her case, and -- 19 502 Q She left you or left Canada? 20 A Left me. Left me. 21 And I was just dealing with a lot of 22 personal matters for a couple of years there, 23 wasn't in a position to pursue it, although it 24 always remained an interest and a goal, and as 25 things settled down in my personal life and as 135 1 this is -- you know, really my life goal is the 2 liberation of the tree of life. I, once again, 3 decided to look into this and picked up the 4 matter and began to look into it again. 5 503 Q So since about 2004/2005 you've been 6 contemplating seeking a discretionary exemption 7 from the Controlled Drugs and Substance Act? 8 A Yes. 9 504 Q All right. We don't know whether it was section 10 56 or some other section? 11 A Yeah. Prior to that I was thinking, you know, 12 of other legal avenues of creating a situation 13 for religious freedoms that allowed consumption 14 of cannabis for people that used it for 15 spiritual persons. 16 505 Q All right. And you were working with Ed 17 Pearson, who I gather works in a law office but 18 is not a lawyer? 19 A I had never met Ed Pearson directly. As from 20 what I know of Ed and from my conversation -- Ed 21 is now deceased -- he was a paralegal. He 22 seemed fairly knowledgeable of a lot of the 23 process and stuff from a life of paralegal work. 24 Whether -- you know, I think he may have worked 25 in a law office at some time. I'm really -- you 136 1 know, like we're talking about someone that I've 2 exchanged some e-mails with and had a few phone 3 conversations with, and that's my extent of 4 knowledge of Mr. Pearson. 5 506 Q How long were these phone conversations? 6 A Well, again, you're asking me about 7 conversations that took place five, six years 8 ago. As to the length of them, I don't know, 9 10 minutes. Who knows? I really couldn't say 10 how long they were. They may have been long. I 11 don't know. They may have been short. I can't 12 recall offhand off the top of my head how many 13 conversations, how long they were or any of 14 that. 15 507 Q Were there others who would have heard the 16 conversations? 17 A I don't really recall anybody sitting in as far 18 as like do you mean like a third person on the 19 phone call? 20 508 Q I don't know. Would others be aware of these 21 conversations? 22 A Or somebody at home at my house? 23 509 Q Would someone be aware of these conversations? 24 A Well, my -- 25 MR. TOUSAW: You're asking for the witness to 137 1 speculate. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 3 510 Q To your knowledge. 4 A To my knowledge? My wife may have heard half of 5 the conversation by being in the same room, but 6 I can't even attest that that took place because 7 I don't know if she was in the same room when I 8 had a conversation over five years ago. Can 9 you? 10 MR. TOUSAW: You don't get to ask the questions -- 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 12 MR. TOUSAW: -- as I'm sure you would have been 13 reminded. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: That's quite all right. You know, 15 we haven't marked Jocelyn Kula's affidavit as an 16 exhibit to this cross-examination. We may as 17 well since we have been talking about documents 18 attached to it. 19 MR. TOUSAW: Okay. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So let's do that. 21 EXHIBIT 5: Jocelyn Kula's affidavit dated 22 January 28, 2010 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 24 511 Q All right. So in your answer to me earlier 25 about your initial contemplation of seeking an 138 1 exemption from the Controlled Drugs and 2 Substances Act, you referred to previous 3 requests that had been made by other members of 4 the Church of the Universe? 5 A M'mm-hmm. 6 512 Q Is this the request that is attached as 7 Exhibit B to the affidavit of Ms. Kula? 8 A Well, to be clear, you said requests, plural. 9 513 Q No, request is what I meant to say, singular. 10 A Okay. Singular. I just want to be clear. 11 Singular. As far as I know, this is the only 12 other exemption 56 request for cannabis for 13 spiritual purposes, and it comes from church 14 founders and members, Brother Walter and 15 Brother Michael. 16 514 Q All right. And how do you know who the request 17 was made by? 18 A I don't. I didn't say that I did. I said that 19 Ed Pearson may have been involved with that. I 20 really don't know. It wasn't my request. To 21 tell you the truth, I had completely forgot that 22 that request had taken place until I received 23 that package from them, so I don't even know 24 that I was specifically aware or understood what 25 had taken place in regards to their request, and 139 1 in conversations with the brothers bringing up 2 my own requests, I don't recall them discussing 3 it either. 4 So I'd kind of just kind of forgotten about 5 it if I knew about it and didn't really pay a 6 lot of attention to it. I actually wish I had 7 known about it prior so I could have taken a 8 look at it. 9 515 Q Were you aware that Michael Baldasaro and Walter 10 Tucker had been prosecuted? 11 A Oh, yeah. They've been, you know, prosecuted a 12 number of times since I've known them. They've 13 been involved in numbers of court cases, and I'm 14 aware of those court cases. I haven't been 15 directly involved in it. 16 They send me legal -- they send out legal 17 documents on the church mailing list, but for 18 the most part when I read that I might as well 19 be reading Greek because it's hard to follow the 20 logic and what's taking place. Generally I only 21 glance it at, but I understand, yeah, that 22 they've been arrested a number of times. 23 516 Q Were you aware of the most recent prosecution 24 that is attached as Exhibit D, I think, but 25 don't quote me until I look at it -- C to the 140 1 affidavit of Jocelyn Kula? 2 A I don't know if I had seen that document prior 3 to receiving it in that package. I was aware 4 that they had been arrested. I was aware that 5 they lost their home in that case, and it was 6 very tragic, and I was -- you know, yeah, 7 that's -- you know, I was aware that they were 8 busted and that they lost the case and lost 9 their home. 10 517 Q That they've been convicted? 11 A Yeah. Yeah, that's part of the threat that I 12 feel as a member of the Church of the Universe, 13 a user of cannabis, although I don't provide it 14 sacramentally. The amount that Brother Walter 15 and Brother Michael were charged with, which I 16 believe was less than a quarter ounce of 17 cannabis, to lose their home over that, that's a 18 pretty serious situation, and theoretically, you 19 know, yeah, oftentimes I have more than a 20 quarter ounce of cannabis in my possession, so I 21 could easily fall under those same threats. 22 518 Q Mr. Baldasaro and Mr. Tucker, they have an 23 e-mail list that they -- to which they send 24 documents? 25 A Yeah. There's a Church of the Universe list, 141 1 e-mail list that goes out. 2 519 Q How long has this been available? 3 A I -- as to how long it's been available -- 4 520 Q Well, how long have you been on the list? 5 A Well, I guess I've been on the list since about 6 2000, when I first got the internet. 7 521 Q And they send out updates of their current 8 proceedings and Church of the Universe 9 activities? 10 A Sometimes. Sometimes it disappears for a while. 11 522 Q What, the list disappears or the Church of the 12 Universe disappears? 13 A The e-mails don't come for a while, and they 14 disappear and then re-emerge as they collect 15 their ability to do so, but there was a break 16 after this case where they were in jail. 17 523 Q After 2008? 18 A Yeah, where they were in jail and I didn't hear 19 from them for a long period of time, and then 20 more recently they've been sending e-mails 21 again. 22 524 Q M'mm-hmm. And then before 2008 they were 23 sending e-mails as well? 24 A Yes. Yes. 25 525 Q Right. And that's where you would've received 142 1 an e-mail about their request for an exemption, 2 although you're fuzzy on the details? 3 A Yeah. You know, I don't know. I can't say that 4 I did. They may have put that out there. I 5 don't see why they wouldn't have. If they did, 6 yeah. You know, they send out so much stuff and 7 I get a lot of like -- I'm on other list serves 8 of spiritual users and stuff, so a lot of the 9 stuff I don't even really look at, you know. 10 Legal documents, if I open them up, I 11 really don't read them. I'm not a lawyer. I 12 don't understand it. I can't figure out what 13 the hell they're talking about half the time, 14 and so I just kind of like, oh, okay, there's 15 that, and I don't really go and focus on it or 16 anything like that. 17 526 Q M'mm-hmm. 18 A Like I said, I didn't remember that they had 19 done this exemption process until I saw that. I 20 was like, oh, I didn't know they did that and it 21 got turned down. 22 And from what I can see, although it 23 doesn't have -- you know, does it have their -- 24 yeah, it has their application in that document 25 as well, but I just don't think they did a good 143 1 enough job in presenting their original 2 application. They could've been a little more 3 specific in a number of areas, but that's just 4 my layman's view. 5 527 Q M'mm-hmm. 6 A And so yeah, I didn't -- it didn't serve a 7 purpose in the presentation of my own document 8 that I can recall or see. 9 528 Q Do you feel you could have been more specific in 10 your original request? 11 A In hindsight, having heard Ms. Kula's testimony, 12 I wish I had included my books with my original 13 request. I wish I had included the affidavits 14 from Professor Carl Ruck, from Professor Scott 15 Littleton, from Professor Thomas Roberts in my 16 original affidavit. I wish I had -- 17 529 Q You mean in your original request? 18 A My original request. 19 530 Q M'mm-hmm. 20 A I wish I had included the -- although I did 21 refer to my books in my original request and if 22 Health Canada had wanted to take a look at them, 23 if they had been serious about investigating my 24 claim, they would have requested additional 25 information as they did in the ayahuasca case, 144 1 and so in hindsight after hearing Mrs. Kula's 2 testimony I wish I had included medical 3 information about cannabis, information about 4 the industrial application, every book that I 5 own that makes reference to the role of cannabis 6 in religion, all my own books, and everything -- 7 and put it on there because I find this process 8 confounding, and my feeling is that the role of 9 the government and the role of yourself is to 10 prevent me from presenting my point of view, 11 preventing me from presenting historical 12 information, preventing me from getting academic 13 support and is all directed at that same 14 two-paragraph statement rejecting my request 15 based on no research or anything like that. 16 So if I had included all that information 17 in my original request, it would all be on the 18 table here as part of the case, and because I 19 didn't include it, that the system, not really 20 being focused on what's right and what's wrong, 21 is more interested in tricking me and putting 22 blocks in my way of preventing my case and my 23 view, and you play a paramount role in that 24 situation. 25 531 Q Do you me mean personally? 145 1 A Yeah. Yeah, you do. 2 532 Q Oh. What do you see as my role? 3 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to -- let me just -- 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: He went there. 5 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to interpose an objection. I 6 don't think it's relevant at all. If the 7 witness wants to answer, I'm not going to direct 8 him not to answer. I think we've gone pretty 9 far off the topic of what's relevant to this 10 particular proceeding. 11 THE WITNESS: Sure. We'll leave it at that. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 13 533 Q Well, Mr. Bennett, what did you see as being the 14 case you had to make out when you made your 15 section 56 request? 16 A I thought that the case I had to make out, that 17 was cannabis was my religious sacrament, that I 18 had roles -- a belief system about the role of 19 cannabis in religion, that cannabis was the tree 20 of life and that I would attempt to meet all the 21 requirements of the MMAR, a similar exemption to 22 what I'm requesting, although for medical 23 purposes, not for spiritual purposes, and to 24 offer myself to be open for more questioning. 25 I assumed that, to tell you the truth, that 146 1 if there was requests for further clarification 2 on the matter, I assumed Health Canada would 3 contact me, and I'm quite surprised they didn't, 4 and I think they failed to really treat me with 5 the adequate respect and that my request was 6 treated as frivolous as was Brother Walter's and 7 Brother Michael's request treated as frivolous. 8 If it was not treated as frivolous, there 9 would be considerable paperwork accumulated in 10 the process. There is no paperwork. There's 11 one page with a two-paragraph statement refusing 12 me. No paperwork, no correspondence between 13 Ms. Kula and her assistants, no attempt to 14 access the document, the historical and cultural 15 uses of cannabis produced from the senate 16 committee, no request for my books until after 17 the rejection. 18 When Ms. Kula was coming up as a defending 19 witness, only then did she begin to research my 20 books, only then did she begin to take my case 21 seriously. 22 534 Q And you're saying now that with the benefit of 23 hindsight you would have put a different request 24 forward with different evidence? 25 A I would have put more evidence with my request. 147 1 Probably the same request. I would have maybe 2 amended it with more specific information 3 regarding how I use cannabis religiously, 4 although I do describe quite clearly in, I 5 believe, paragraphs 12 through 14 that my 6 original epiphany took place under the influence 7 of cannabis and that since that time it has 8 served as a source of spiritual inspiration and 9 guidance. 10 535 Q And for the record, you're referring to the 11 affidavit filed in this proceeding which is 12 Exhibit 1 to the cross-examination and not to 13 Exhibit A to Ms. Kula's affidavit? 14 A Well, I didn't realize that was it, but I 15 believe I make those same statements in my 16 original request, so I'm referring to -- the 17 numbers may be different. I'd have to take a 18 look at my original request to see it. The 19 two documents are very similar. I'm pretty sure 20 that I make that exact same statement in there. 21 Whether it's paragraphs 12 through 14 as in my 22 affidavit in response, I'd have to look at the 23 original request to give you those numbers. 24 536 Q And it's only with the benefit of hindsight 25 after hearing from Ms. Kula during her 148 1 cross-examination that you think you would have 2 evidenced your request differently? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to interpose the objection 5 that it has been asked and answered. He just 6 gave the answer. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. Can we read back and see 8 whether there was an answer. I'm just not sure 9 that there was a clear answer. Sometimes I find 10 the answers get a little off track. 11 (COURT REPORTER READS BACK ANSWER TO QUESTION 12 534) 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. 14 537 Q And my question, which I don't think was 15 answered, so I'm going to ask it again, 16 Mr. Tousaw, is insofar as you were starting to 17 say that you would have done things differently 18 and you listed some examples -- 19 A M'mm-hmm. 20 538 Q -- that is a realization to which you came after 21 the cross-examination of Ms. Kula? 22 A Yes. Ms. Kula had raised her concerns about the 23 application, mentioned some of those, 24 specifically about she was unclear as how I was 25 going to use the cannabis, so that was raised 149 1 there. 2 The information regarding affidavits and 3 additional information is less in response to 4 statements made by Ms. Kula and more in response 5 to your continual unwillingness and attempts to 6 not let information in, like Scott Littleton's 7 affidavit, for instance, or the amended sentence 8 of Professor Ruck's affidavit, for instance. 9 I don't see that as serving any role in the 10 justice aspect, getting down to the truth of 11 matter in this case, but rather at making my 12 case weaker by preventing me from bringing in 13 historical and academic support. 14 In your questioning today you've made a 15 number of attempts to try and disqualify my own 16 expertise, I would say -- this is the line of 17 thinking that I'm assuming -- based on my school 18 records, my lack of a high school diploma, my 19 lack of academic credentials, and it seems to me 20 that the process that you are pursuing in this 21 case is one that is trying to prevent me from 22 presenting that information in order for the 23 judge not to see it and use that as part of his 24 decision-making process. 25 So in hindsight of that and Ms. Kula's 150 1 statement regarding her request that I had been 2 more specific, I wish I had added some more 3 paragraphs, and I wish I had included all the 4 academic support that I do have for my work. 5 539 Q By which you mean you wish you'd included? 6 A Affidavits from Professor Scott Littleton, 7 affidavit from Professor Carl Ruck, affidavit 8 from Professor Thomas Robert, and had I known 9 that that would be where evidence may be limited 10 to is what's presented in the original request, 11 I probably would have loaded it up with even 12 more information, other books, other -- I know 13 other professors. I thought that I may be 14 responsible for flying out everybody that 15 provided an affidavit, so I wanted to limit 16 that. I could have added more. 17 I know more professors that have read my 18 work. I know doctors that have read my work. I 19 know other people that have got a background in 20 this type of thing that are supporters of my 21 work, and I probably would have requested all of 22 them to present affidavits and submitted a 23 boxful of information, although -- 24 540 Q For the purposes of your request -- 25 MR. TOUSAW: Well, can -- 151 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Sorry. 2 MR. TOUSAW: Can you let him finish the question, 3 please? 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yes. 5 A Although I don't think that I should -- you 6 know, I don't think that the process should make 7 that an obligation on me. I think that what 8 should have taken place was that Health Canada 9 should have read my request, they should have 10 researched my request, which they did not do. 11 There's no evidence that -- no paperwork 12 that indicates any sort of real investigation 13 into my request. There's a two-paragraph 14 rejection compared to 350 plus pages of 15 correspondence regarding the -- one of the other 16 four exemptions, exemption 56 religious 17 requests, or one of the other three, and the 18 two cannabis ones just seemed to have received 19 rubber stamp rejections. 20 So if the process were a true and genuine 21 process, they would have researched my claim, 22 they would have contacted me with any concerns 23 and asked me to amend my application by 24 supplying some more information if there were 25 concerns. They didn't do any of that. They 152 1 just rubber stamped my rejection, can show us no 2 evidence of any sort of research into my claim 3 and summarily rejected me and treated my claim 4 as frivolous. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Let's take the lunch break. 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:28 P.M.) 7 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:30 P.M.) 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 9 541 Q Mr. Bennett, we're back after the lunch break. 10 Did you discuss your cross-examination or any of 11 your evidence with anyone over lunch? 12 A No, I did not. 13 542 Q You did not. Did you have any conversations 14 with your lawyer over lunch? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 543 Q About things other than this court case, I hope? 17 A Things other than the court case, yes. 18 544 Q And nothing else? You have to still say yes or 19 no. 20 A Yes. 21 545 Q All right. So, Mr. Bennett, before the lunch 22 break you were starting to tell me that for 23 financial reasons you were unable to pursue your 24 charter challenge or intended charter challenge 25 which you started to think about, you said, I 153 1 think, in the mid 1909s. 2 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to interpose an objection and 3 say that was, I think, part of the reason. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Mr. Tousaw, I think he was talking 6 about a different period when he was dealing 7 with his second wife, but when he was talking 8 about the mid 1990s he was describing financial 9 reasons and having thought about a criminal 10 approach. 11 MR. TOUSAW: As I say, that was part of it. 12 A Yeah, in the 1990s, as I stated earlier, I had 13 sort of visualized my role as more of an expert 14 witness as in Ian Hunter's case. 15 I hadn't -- you know, I thought that if I 16 was ever arrested for using cannabis I would 17 definitely have brought forth a religious 18 defence, but it wasn't something, you know, that 19 I was particularly working towards or planning 20 out or anything like that. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 22 546 Q Have you ever been arrested? 23 A No, I haven't. 24 547 Q Has your business, the Urban Shaman, ever been 25 raided? 154 1 A Well, you know, indirectly I guess when Marc 2 Emery's seed business was raided, they came 3 through the shop and looked around at some 4 stuff, and police have visited my store and 5 looked around, but I've never had it raided or 6 had police charge me for anything regarding it. 7 548 Q And you've never had authorities shut down your 8 business? 9 A No, I have not. 10 549 Q All right. And what was your comment about 11 financial circumstances meant to be earlier? 12 A I thought that was in regards to Ed Pearson and 13 that time period there, and, you know, I said 14 that was one of the considerations. There was 15 also the situation with my wife's case, which I 16 didn't want to complicate, but yeah, I don't 17 know, like, you know, in the last few years I 18 guess, yeah, you have to have -- you know, it's 19 cost me a lot of money even to get to this stage 20 of the process, so, yeah, financial 21 considerations in any case are a consideration. 22 550 Q Are you financially well off now? 23 A No. I'd say, you know, maybe I have a middle 24 class income. 25 551 Q What is that income? 155 1 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object and -- 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Why? 3 MR. TOUSAW: -- indicate that there's no relevance to 4 that question. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: He's the one who has taken us down 6 the road of explaining that financial 7 considerations were one of his considerations. 8 I'd like to know what his current financial 9 state is. 10 MR. TOUSAW: And frankly I don't think there's any 11 relevance to the line of questioning at all. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Are you instructing -- 13 MR. TOUSAW: But you're certainly -- 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- him not to answer? 15 MR. TOUSAW: If you wish to answer, you can answer. 16 A I don't think my income is anybody's business 17 really. It's a private matter. 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 19 552 Q So it's people's business in answer to questions 20 for you to explain that financial circumstances 21 were one of the considerations in holding off 22 pursuing legal proceedings, but it's nobody's 23 business for us to know what your actual 24 financial circumstances are? 25 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. That's 156 1 argumentative. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 3 553 Q Well, what did you mean by that when you said 4 you don't think it's anyone's business? 5 A Maybe we could have somebody read back the 6 testimony and remind me of exactly what I said 7 and what the context of it was because I'm not 8 getting it from what you're saying. 9 554 Q Well, we can certainly read back your comment 10 about whether you thought it was anyone's 11 business to answer my question. 12 (COURT REPORTER READS BACK QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 13 550, 551 AND 552) 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 15 555 Q So you've said you have a middle class income, 16 but you're not prepared to tell me what it is? 17 A Yeah, sure, that's what I said. 18 556 Q Are you afraid of telling me what it is? 19 A No. I just don't think it's your business. I 20 don't think it has any relevance to the case or 21 my -- or my religious use or any of that, so no. 22 557 Q But you've said that financial considerations 23 were a consideration. 24 A Of many. 25 MR. TOUSAW: Well, I'm going to -- 157 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'm moving on, Mr. Tousaw. 2 MR. TOUSAW: Okay. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'll wrap it up and move it on. 4 558 Q I'm going to put it to you that you don't want 5 to tell me your income because you don't want to 6 disclose what you earn from the Urban Shaman? 7 A I'm going to put it to you that that's not the 8 case. I don't really care. That information is 9 easily accessible if you really want to get a 10 hold of it, and I think that you're prying into 11 personal matters that have no relevance to this 12 case whatsoever. 13 559 Q How is it easily accessible, Mr. Bennett? 14 A I'm sure that income tax records, you can get 15 that. 16 560 Q Can you produce those, please? 17 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. Irrelevant. Move 18 on, counsel. He's not going to answer any more 19 questions along this line. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Are you instructing him not to 21 answer? 22 MR. TOUSAW: That's right. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. I maintain that it's 24 relevant. 25 REQUEST 1: Provide a copy of the income tax 158 1 records of Urban Shaman 2 ***REQUEST REFUSED*** 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 561 Q Earlier this morning you testified about sharing 5 cannabis with others. Do you remember your 6 testimony? 7 A I remember that I stated that I do share 8 cannabis with others on occasion. 9 562 Q Do you on occasion receive anything in return? 10 A No, I don't receive any sort of, you know, cash 11 or trade or anything like for sharing cannabis, 12 no. 13 563 Q Do you receive cannabis in return? 14 A No. Maybe shared cannabis. Maybe like I 15 partake of other people's cannabis, if that's 16 what you mean. 17 564 Q That is what I mean. If I may use an analogy, 18 it's a bit like buying a round for people, and 19 they buy a round for you? 20 A No, it's not like that. 21 565 Q Oh. Explain to me then because I ... 22 A Well, alcohol is something that is consumed. 23 You know, I don't pass you my cup; right? You 24 don't come and drink my cup and then here's your 25 drink. 159 1 Cannabis is one of the last things that is 2 really consumed communally, as with like 3 breaking bread in the Christian tradition, Jesus 4 breaking bread and sharing loaves. 5 And the communal aspect of cannabis use is, 6 I would say, part of the evidence of its 7 inherent spiritual qualities. 8 566 Q So part of your use of cannabis is that you must 9 invariably share it; it must be communal? 10 A No. 11 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. That totally 12 mischaracterizes his answer. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well -- 15 MR. TOUSAW: But you can ask him a question. 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: That was a question. 17 MR. TOUSAW: It was a mischaracterization of his 18 prior testimony. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: You interrupted as he was about to 20 answer. He seems perfectly capable of answering 21 questions without your guidance, Mr. Tousaw. 22 MR. TOUSAW: Counsel, I'm not guiding my witness -- 23 your witness. I am interposing an objection. 24 You can hear the objection. I've made the 25 objection. It's on the record. 160 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 2 567 Q Mr. Bennett, is this communal aspect an integral 3 aspect of the cannabis use experience for you? 4 A I like it, but as I stated, granted an 5 exemption, if that exemption prevents me from 6 sharing cannabis with others, I would be willing 7 to accommodate the provisions of that exemption. 8 568 Q When you describe your use of cannabis, 9 sometimes it's shared and sometimes it's 10 solitary; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 569 Q And sometimes it's with a vaporizer and other 13 times is it used differently? 14 A On occasion I smoke it. 15 570 Q Sorry, I'm so unfamiliar with the process. You 16 mean smoke a cannabis cigarette essentially? 17 A I smoke joints. I smoke cannabis in a pipe 18 occasionally. I consume cannabis baked goods on 19 occasion. I've used cannabis-infused wine and 20 the preparation bhang as part of my research 21 into the historical role of cannabis. 22 571 Q Is that b-h-a-n-g? 23 A Yes, that's correct. 24 572 Q And do you use it in a particular place, or does 25 it not matter where? 161 1 A Anywhere is good. 2 573 Q Anywhere is good. It could be in your home, it 3 could be outside, another's home, it doesn't 4 matter? 5 A Generally I try to use some general discretion 6 when in public. I don't, you know, smoke in a 7 park full of kids or in a grocery store, or I 8 try to respect the smoking bylaws of the 9 province of British Columbia, so I couldn't say 10 anywhere. 11 574 Q But there's no rule other than your own 12 discretion that requires you to consume it in 13 any particular place? 14 A Yeah, sure. 15 575 Q There is a rule -- 16 A There's no rule. 17 576 Q -- or no, there isn't a rule? 18 A No, there isn't a rule beyond things like 19 smoking bylaws, things like that and public 20 politeness that affect where. You know, in 21 general, just considerations. 22 577 Q Do you consider it a sacrament every time you 23 use cannabis? 24 A Yes. Yes, I do. I have stated that before a 25 number of times in my testimony. 162 1 578 Q You have. And what is it about the use that 2 makes it a sacrament? 3 A Well, for one thing it's my belief and 4 recognition that it's the tree of life. That 5 right there makes all aspects of it that I use 6 it as a sacramental type of thing, and -- 7 579 Q Just so I understand, so part of what makes it a 8 sacrament -- 9 A Well, I'm not finished my answer. 10 580 Q Well, it's just that I'm finding the answers a 11 bit long and your counsel and I have had some 12 discussions about whether we'll wrap up, so I 13 want to be sure I understand each part. 14 A Well, I'd like to finish my answer, to tell you 15 the truth. 16 581 Q Oh, well, Mr. Bennett, then go right ahead. 17 A Yeah. And, you know, maybe let me just kind of 18 carry through with thoughts because it makes it 19 hard to carry on a consecutive thought with the 20 constant interruptions. 21 Well, basically, yeah, cannabis inhaled or 22 ingested provides me with spiritual insights and 23 wisdom and is a guiding light in my life. 24 582 Q Can you enumerate, other than your belief that 25 cannabis is the tree of life, what the spiritual 163 1 guidance and wisdom has been? 2 A Well, that cannabis being the tree of life, the 3 direction that I've taken my life in in focusing 4 on the liberation of cannabis, the tree of life, 5 the way it has acted as a guiding factor in the 6 compilations of the research that's put forth in 7 my three books leading me on to avenues of 8 research, where to look, intuition, all these 9 types of things, and helps me to follow that 10 spiritual path. 11 583 Q This morning I asked you some questions about 12 the nature of your evidence in your 13 section 56 request. Do you remember those 14 questions? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 584 Q Do you remember your answers? 17 A Well, maybe you could be more specific as to the 18 question because -- 19 585 Q Do you have a general recollection of having 20 answered those questions? 21 A Yeah, I have a general ... 22 586 Q All right. Before we go further, did you 23 consume any cannabis over the lunch break? 24 A No, I did not. 25 587 Q You did not. All right. 164 1 I'm going to take you to Exhibit A to 2 Jocelyn Kula's affidavit, which is marked as 3 Exhibit 5 -- I have a copy here -- 4 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 6 588 Q -- to this cross-examination. 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 589 Q I just have to turn to my copy of it. 9 I'm in your statutory declaration. Do you 10 see it there? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 590 Q All right. You signed the statutory 13 declaration, did you? 14 A Correct. 15 591 Q On August 11, 2008? 16 A Yes. 17 592 Q Did you believe it was true when you signed it? 18 A Yes, I did. 19 593 Q Do you still believe it's true today? 20 A Yes, as far as I recall, yes. 21 594 Q All right. This morning you explained that it 22 was your understanding that in order to receive 23 your section 56 exemption you had to show, among 24 other things, your religious belief system. Do 25 you recall that answer? 165 1 A Yes. 2 595 Q All right. Can you tell me, please, exactly 3 where in this statutory declaration you set out 4 your religious belief system? 5 A I would say that my religious belief system is 6 stated out quite clearly in paragraphs 12 7 through 20. 8 596 Q All right. Please tell me where in -- 9 A 21. 10 597 Q Oh, sorry. Please tell me where in paragraph 12 11 is the statement about your religious belief 12 system? 13 A It is stated in paragraph 13. I describe -- 14 598 Q Mr. Bennett, I was asking you about 15 paragraph 12. 16 A Paragraph 12? Oh. 17 Well, that's what leads up to my religious 18 experience. 19 599 Q Oh, okay. So this was as you came to realize 20 the use of cannabis in the jobs versus 21 environment debate, so this is not part of your 22 religious belief system? 23 A This is what led to the development of my 24 religious belief system. 25 600 Q It's not part of your religious belief system? 166 1 A It is part of it because the industrial 2 applications of cannabis, as I've explained in 3 earlier testimony, are the fruits of the tree of 4 life. 5 601 Q So this is part of your religious belief system 6 insofar as it speaks to the industrial 7 applications of cannabis? 8 A Number 12? 9 602 Q Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 603 Q All right. Anything else that I've missed about 12 number 12? 13 A Well -- 14 604 Q It's not very long. I'm not trying to be 15 tricky. 16 A Yeah, I'm just trying to understand, you know, 17 and I can take my time, and I want to present 18 proper answers, so try not to rush my testimony, 19 if you don't mind. 20 Yeah, this is like related to the 21 industrial applications which led, like other 22 events, to my recognition that cannabis was the 23 biblical tree of life. 24 605 Q All right. Paragraph 13. Which statement 25 speaks to your religious belief system? It can 167 1 be more than one statement, by the way. 2 A Yeah. 3 606 Q I don't want to restrict your answers in any 4 way. 5 A Well, I describe how in the early mornings of 6 the night I consumed cannabis while reading the 7 Book of Revelation and that led to my religious 8 experience. 9 607 Q All right. So which portion actually is part of 10 your current religious belief system? 11 A The smoking cannabis part. 12 608 Q All right. And paragraph 14? 13 A Can I take a pee? 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, we're just back from the lunch 15 break. I don't see why not. Sure. Let's take 16 5 minutes. 17 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 1:46 P.M.) 18 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:48 P.M.) 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 20 609 Q Mr. Bennett has had his break. 21 A You know, I should point out that paragraph 12 22 is -- this is what led to my religious 23 experience. At least these are the events that 24 led and developed my religious experience, 25 developed from, but prior to this I wasn't a 168 1 religious user. 2 610 Q Okay. 3 A This is the moment. 4 611 Q Which? In paragraph 12 is the moment? 5 A Well, it's spread out over -- it's a 6 complicated -- 7 612 Q I'm trying -- 8 A -- event. 9 613 Q I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm 10 just trying to understand exactly where it is in 11 the statutory declaration, and correct me if I'm 12 wrong, but what I'm hearing from you now is that 13 paragraph 12 actually isn't about the moment but 14 is about the events that led to the moment? 15 A That, I would say, is a pivotal part of the 16 moment. This is all part of the moment. I'm 17 breaking down the moment. 18 614 Q And how much time did the moment span exactly? 19 A Yeah, like pretty much when I'm smoking cannabis 20 there and reading the Book of Revelation there. 21 615 Q I'm in paragraph 12, sir. 22 A Yeah, 12. 23 616 Q So you're not actually reading the Book of 24 Revelation in that paragraph. 25 A Yeah, paragraph 12 I describe the smoking of the 169 1 cannabis. 2 617 Q No actually. It doesn't refer to the smoking of 3 the cannabis at all. 4 A Okay. Okay. 5 MR. TOUSAW: Maybe you want to, just because she's 6 asking questions, just take your time and read 7 the thing so that we can be efficient in your 8 answer. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tousaw. I hope 10 he does the same thing. 11 A Paragraph 12 is one of the defining factors that 12 led to the experience. 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 14 618 Q All right. So it's not actually part of the 15 current belief system? 16 A Yes. 17 619 Q Now, it's one of the factors that led to the 18 belief system? 19 A No, I didn't say that. As I stated earlier in 20 my testimony, the industrial applications of 21 cannabis are one of the things that define it as 22 the tree of life. 23 620 Q Okay. 24 A Prior to this I had no knowledge of the tree of 25 life and the 12 manners of fruit, but I did have 170 1 knowledge of the industrial and medicinal and 2 nutritional qualities of cannabis. 3 621 Q Thank you. That's very helpful. 4 And you do have to be patient with me 5 because, of course, I wasn't in your head when 6 you drafted this statutory declaration. 7 A Yeah. Yeah. 8 622 Q All right. 9 A Yeah. 10 623 Q Okay. Paragraph 13 -- 11 A M'mm-hmm. 12 624 Q -- you told me that the -- sorry, we've already 13 covered that paragraph. 14 Paragraph 14 -- I'm getting caught up 15 myself. 16 A M'mm-hmm. 17 625 Q All right. Which part of that paragraph is part 18 of your religious belief system currently? 19 A All of it. 20 626 Q So "I became caught up in the apocalyptic ardor 21 of the moment" is part of your current religious 22 belief system? 23 A Yes. Yes, I still hold that cannabis is the 24 tree of life from the Book of Revelation and, as 25 described in 13, the smoking of cannabis, and 171 1 the reading of the Book of Revelation is what 2 led to the getting caught up in the apocalyptic 3 ardor of the moment, and here it is 20 years 4 later and -- 5 627 Q What does -- oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 6 A -- and here it is 20 years later, cannabis is 7 still the tree of life, and there's more 8 evidence of that. This is -- at this time 9 it's -- probably my religious beliefs are based 10 more on faith and intuition. 20 years later I 11 would say that that faith has been replaced by a 12 wealth of knowledge on the subject. 13 628 Q Can you just tell me what you mean by 14 "apocalyptic ardor"? 15 A Well, do you know what the apocalypse is? 16 629 Q I have a sense of what I believe the apocalypse 17 to mean, but I want to know what you mean by the 18 statement "the apocalyptic ardor" in your 19 statutory declaration. 20 A Well, it's like the culmination of the Book of 21 Revelation and world events. 22 630 Q All right. So that's the apocalypse. What do 23 you mean by the "apocalyptic ardor of the 24 moment"? 25 A I suppose the -- 172 1 631 Q Well, Mr. Bennett, I don't want you to suppose. 2 I want you to tell me what you actually recall 3 meaning to say when you signed the statutory 4 declaration. 5 A The apocalyptic emotions and feelings of the 6 moment. 7 632 Q So you felt as though it were the end of the 8 world? 9 A Not in that moment, but the beginnings -- not so 10 much the end of the world. I don't really think 11 the Book of Revelation on the apocalypse 12 indicates that. Even in the Book of Revelation 13 the world is left standing after the event. The 14 term itself means -- has more to do with 15 revealing and unveiling. 16 So yeah, I became -- like it was a moment 17 of unveiling. It was like God presented to me 18 this is the tree of life from the Book of 19 Revelation. This is what this is all about. 20 This is the defining factor. 21 633 Q And this is God as you've described your God 22 belief earlier? 23 A Yeah, that when I smoke the cannabis and I read 24 the passages in the Book of Revelation, I felt 25 like a divine light descended upon me with 173 1 information that this is it, this is the tree of 2 life, like, say, Parsifal having his vision of 3 the Grail before going out on the Grail quest. 4 634 Q I see you refer to the prophet John having been 5 given this role vis-a-vis for prophesizing? 6 A M'mm-hmm. 7 635 Q Do you believe all the prophesies of the prophet 8 John as written in the Bible? 9 A Well, to be clear on the Book of Revelation -- 10 636 Q Well, I just want to know about the prophesies 11 of the prophet John. 12 A Yeah, yeah, well, I'm talking about the prophet 13 John and John's prophesies of revelation. 14 You know, at that time when I read that, I 15 thought John was speaking about, directly about, 16 events of today, but I now know that John 17 himself, albeit what God perhaps had destined 18 for the Book of Revelation, was writing about 19 the state of Rome as it stood in about 95 AD, 20 and much of the symbolism, say the great beast, 21 666, other elements in the Book of Revelation, 22 are references to the Roman Empire. As it was 23 illegal to write directly about the downfall of 24 the Roman Empire, they used Babylon as a means 25 of kind of disqualifying the text from 174 1 prohibitions regarding that. 2 637 Q Like an allegory? 3 A Like an allegory. 4 638 Q M'mm-hmm. 5 A But the Book of Revelation itself has become a 6 symbol that is -- a myth and a symbol that has 7 incorporated itself into larger humanity, and in 8 that sense, larger humanity, through people like 9 say George Bush, act out according to the Book 10 of Revelation, and George Bush received 11 political advice from people like Jerry Falwell 12 and Jack Van Impe, a religious evangelicist 13 [sic], and pursues a course of action in the 14 Middle East like the intensive American support 15 of the nation of Israel, which is solely a land 16 claim based upon God's supposed promise to 17 Abraham, and causes them to act out politically 18 and support politically and bring the Book of 19 Revelation to life. 20 So the collective belief in the Book of 21 Revelation in the collective consciousness has 22 projected that back out onto the real world in 23 our time. 24 639 Q But that's a belief you share or don't share? 25 A I share -- that's my belief. Share with who? 175 1 What do you mean? 2 640 Q This belief that you describe, the collective 3 consciousness using the Book of Revelation to 4 project it onto our time and George Bush using 5 it to justify certain political activities. 6 A Yeah. But share with who? What do you mean? 7 Like I share -- 8 641 Q Do you agree with what you've just described as 9 George Bush's belief arising out of the Book of 10 Revelation? 11 A I believe that George Bush's actions are arising 12 out of the Book of Revelation through their 13 interpretation, through Christian 14 evangelicists [sic], but my own interpretation 15 of the Book of Revelation is different. 16 642 Q All right. So that brings me back to do you 17 believe the prophet John's prophesies are true? 18 A I believe that John made relevant prophetic 19 statements regarding -- I believe that John -- 20 I'm just trying to think how to define that. 21 I would have to read -- I guess I would 22 have to reread the whole Book of Revelation to 23 really qualify an answer on that. 24 643 Q So you're not able to answer that today? 25 A Yeah. It's like -- I can't recall. It's like 176 1 a -- you know, how big is the Book of 2 Revelation? You're asking me for a lot of 3 statements in there. 4 MR. TOUSAW: That leads to my suggestion perhaps if 5 you have a specific revelation you can question 6 the witness about. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 644 Q I'm just trying to understand which parts of 14 9 are part of his current religious belief system. 10 I take it that the understanding that the 11 references in the Book of Revelation to the tree 12 of life are references to the cannabis plant is 13 part of your religious belief system? 14 A Yeah. Yes. 15 645 Q All right. 16 A And that John was using that sacrament in the 17 scroll that he ate that tasted as sweet as 18 honey, turned bitter in his stomach. 19 646 Q All right. So that's part of your -- 20 A Yeah. 21 647 Q -- current belief system? 22 A M'mm-hmm. 23 648 Q All right. Paragraph 15. Which part of 24 paragraph 15 is a reference to your religious 25 belief system? 177 1 A All of it. 2 649 Q Can you be more specific, please? Is it just 3 the story of how you came to have your religious 4 belief system, or is there a specific belief 5 listed there that is part of your religious 6 belief system? 7 A Well, I hold to the original epiphany that I 8 mention in the first sentence. 9 650 Q That would be that cannabis is the tree of life 10 that is described in the Book of Revelation? 11 A Yeah. And I hold that divine information light 12 entered my being. 13 651 Q Right. What do you mean by "divine" -- 14 A God. 15 652 Q -- in that statement? 16 A God. 17 653 Q And we've covered this before, but I understood 18 your answer to be that what you meant by God was 19 this collective unconscious. Is your answer 20 different now? 21 A I did not say the collective unconscious. I 22 said the collective consciousness, but I 23 differentiated from Dr. Carl Jung's view that it 24 was unconscious and that this collective 25 consciousness was kind of coming into a form of 178 1 self-reflection and awareness of itself. 2 654 Q And so this collective self-reflection is what 3 you mean by divine? 4 A Yes. 5 655 Q All right. You don't mean Jehovah? 6 A I think Jehovah is one of the anthropomorphic 7 interpretations of that experience. 8 656 Q But you've stated you don't believe in Jehovah? 9 A I don't believe in the biblical God as Jehovah 10 as that -- what it says in the Bible, you know, 11 Jehovah did this, Jehovah did that. No, I 12 couldn't say that I believe in a deity like 13 that. 14 657 Q No. And you don't believe in heaven and hell? 15 A I don't believe in heaven and hell, no. 16 658 Q You don't believe in the virgin birth? 17 A I don't believe in the virgin birth. 18 659 Q You don't believe in the crucifixion? 19 A I believe that the crucifixion itself was a sort 20 of hoax of sorts that was directed at funneling 21 the Jewish independence movement into a more 22 unified group and that -- you know, I don't 23 believe that Jesus rose from the dead, no. 24 660 Q The resurrection, I think that's referred to? 25 A The resurrection, yes. 179 1 661 Q All right. You don't identify yourself as a 2 Jew? 3 A I do not identify myself as a Jew. 4 662 Q You do not identify yourself as a Hindu? 5 A No. I'm a member of the Church of the Universe. 6 663 Q Would you consider that a Christian church? 7 A Some might. I consider it a gnostic church. 8 664 Q You don't consider a gnostic church to be a 9 Christian church? 10 A Gnostic Christian, but not in the sense of 11 Christianity as we know it now. More in the 12 sense of gnostic Christianity of the first few 13 centuries AD. 14 665 Q With the belief system that you have outlined 15 for the Church of the Universe? 16 A I would say that the belief system of the Church 17 of the Universe is on par with the gnostic 18 religions of the first few centuries, and 19 Brother Walter has specifically told me the 20 Church of the Universe is a gnostic church. 21 666 Q When did he tell you this? 22 A He told me this, I don't know, a few years ago. 23 After reading my book, he told me that we 24 were -- you know, it was a gnostic religion, 25 knowledge, it was based on knowledge. 180 1 667 Q We're still going through your statutory 2 declaration. I take it that in paragraph 16 the 3 belief system is simply the belief that the tree 4 of life is cannabis as defined in this verse 5 that you quote there? 6 A Yes. 7 668 Q All right. And paragraph 17, which part of this 8 is part of your religious belief system? 9 A All of it. 10 669 Q All of it. Just simply that these fruits 11 indicate that cannabis is the tree of life? 12 A Yeah, that this is evidence of cannabis being 13 the tree of life. 14 670 Q All right. 18, 19 and 20 you've said also are 15 intended to be evidence of your religious belief 16 system? 17 A M'mm-hmm. 18 671 Q Is there anything in 18, 19 and 20 other than 19 this belief that cannabis is the tree of life 20 that you're referring to? 21 A I'll just read those paragraphs. 22 672 Q Yeah, just read them to yourself. I don't need 23 them read out loud. 24 A Yeah, that's not what I intended. 25 Yeah, I think all of that -- I hold to all 181 1 that, and I see that as all part of my religious 2 use. 3 673 Q And that wasn't actually my question. My 4 question was, is there anything about a belief 5 system that is in there or that you intend 6 someone to interpret as being in there other 7 than your belief that cannabis is the tree of 8 life? 9 A Not that I can see. 10 674 Q Okay. So we've covered paragraphs 12 to 20. I 11 do have one question about paragraph 20. What 12 was your involvement with the Ethiopian Zion 13 Coptic Church? 14 A Well, initially after contacting the Church of 15 the Universe I had sent them some of the 16 research that I had just started collecting; it 17 was in the very first stages. 18 675 Q Sorry, Mr. Bennett, sent who? 19 A The Church of the Universe some of the research 20 that I had been collecting regarding cannabis 21 being the tree of life, and in response to that 22 package they sent me a booklet Marijuana and the 23 Bible by the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church, and 24 so this little booklet, a small booklet about 25 40 pages, I think, contained research much like 182 1 that which I had been collecting, and the author 2 of it had obviously had some very similar 3 beliefs about cannabis, and so I made attempts 4 to find members of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic 5 Church. 6 I did that and came into communication with 7 them, and for a couple of years I was involved 8 with the author of that Ethiopian Zion Coptic 9 Church booklet, Marijuana and the Bible, Jeff 10 Brown, in exchanging research, and we were 11 considering working together, but I found that I 12 had some fundamental religious and philosophical 13 differences with the Ethiopian Zion Coptic 14 Church, and I decided to part ways with them in 15 a sense. 16 I still am friends with these guys, but I 17 don't consider myself to be -- you know, I don't 18 share the same belief system beyond the 19 sacramental use of cannabis that they do. They 20 have strict rules about homosexuality, hand sex, 21 oral sex and other issues that I just couldn't 22 support or share, and I didn't want my research 23 to go into supporting that world view. 24 676 Q Just to be clear on some of what you said, you 25 said "for a couple of years." So is that 1990 183 1 to 1992 roughly? 2 A Yeah. I don't know, 19- -- yeah, I don't know, 3 1990/91 it could've been. I don't know, '90, I 4 guess. 1990. You know, like this was we were 5 talking in 1990. That's like in December, so it 6 probably was '91 by the time I became involved 7 with the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church, and I 8 officially made it clear that I was not going to 9 be, you know, using them as support of my 10 information or putting their names in their 11 church with my writings around 1994. 12 677 Q '94. Okay. And this is before you became 13 involved with the Church of the Universe or at 14 the same time? 15 A No, it was at the same time. 16 678 Q So you were a minister of the Church of the 17 Universe and conversing with? 18 A Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church, and I should point 19 out then and now I converse with a variety of 20 churches that use cannabis. 21 679 Q I'm just trying to pinpoint the timing. 22 A Yes. 23 680 Q And what were your philosophical differences 24 apart from the beliefs around homosexuality? 25 A Homosexuality as well as man sex and oral sex 184 1 between women. Those I would say -- the main 2 concerns that I had were all revolving around 3 sexuality, and this is one of the attractions to 4 gnosticism because gnosticism had more of a 5 libertarian or libertine or tantric view of 6 sexuality, and it was incorporated as part of 7 the sexual experience, and the Church of the 8 Universe itself is more in line with that. 9 In fact, the church ring many reverends 10 wear is a man and a woman in the classic 11 69 position indicating the erotic element of 12 worship in the Church of the Universe. 13 The Church of the Universe is very into 14 nudity, nudism, sunbathing, you know, being in 15 the natural state, and the Church of the 16 Universe, yeah, that's more in line with my way 17 of thinking than the sexual repression of the 18 Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church which might be 19 compared more to the old testament rules or 20 maybe some of the rules put forth in Catholicism 21 but obviously not followed through by their 22 clergy. 23 681 Q Are you into the nudity and so on as well? 24 A I think that that's all perfectly fine, yeah. 25 682 Q No, but is that something you do as well? 185 1 A Do I get naked? 2 683 Q Well, I -- 3 A Yes, I get naked. 4 684 Q I think you were talking about nude sunbathing 5 and just general nudity, and I think -- I'm just 6 curious. 7 A Yeah. Yeah, I think that being in the natural 8 state is a good way to set yourself before God, 9 sure. 10 685 Q So when you are using cannabis are you clothed 11 or naked? 12 A Both. 13 686 Q So it can be either? 14 A It can be either, yeah. 15 687 Q All right. 16 A But there's no strict prohibition against the 17 nudity as there would be say with the Ethiopian 18 Zion Coptic Church. 19 688 Q And there's no requirement one way or the other 20 as there would be with the Ethiopian Zion Coptic 21 Church? 22 A With the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church it'd 23 pretty much a requirement that hand sex, oral 24 sex, sex that's not directed at procreation and 25 all these things be prohibited and withheld 186 1 from. 2 689 Q And certainly they would prohibit the use of 3 cannabis in that context? 4 A Well, those acts are prohibited, so yeah, it's 5 just not part of their church, you know. So 6 would cannabis be specifically prohibited in 7 that context? It's more those acts themselves 8 that would be prohibited, not the consumption of 9 cannabis. 10 690 Q All right. That's -- just one last question 11 about the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church. That's 12 not the same as the Rastafarian organization you 13 were talking about before? 14 A No. They were formed around the same time, but 15 as I understand it, the Ethiopian Zion Coptic 16 Church hasn't got focus on Haile Selassie as 17 with the Rastafarian religion, and that would 18 probably be the main difference between the 19 two groups. 20 691 Q All right. And the Rastafarian religion, they 21 have -- or some members, I guess, have rules 22 around the way in which cannabis should be used? 23 A Well, you know, when we're talking about 24 Rastafarianism, there's not like a dogmatic book 25 of Rastafarian faith, and so you may find some 187 1 groups of Rastafarians that have some sort of 2 observations that must be met in order to ingest 3 cannabis, but then you may find other 4 Rastafarians where that's not really an issue. 5 692 Q But in your research you have found the former, 6 haven't you? 7 A No. I'm stating to you what I found in my 8 research is that it's a pretty loose thing. 9 There's no dogmatic control over the Rastafarian 10 religions, and that means many things to many 11 people. 12 693 Q Right. And you've said that some Rastafarians 13 take the view that there are certain 14 observational requirements vis-a-vis the use of 15 cannabis? 16 A Some Rastafarians, yes. 17 694 Q And that's something you found in your research? 18 A Yes, that's something I found in my research, 19 but it's not the deciding factor for the 20 Rastafarian religion. It's a general statement 21 about some members of the Rastafarian faith. 22 695 Q Well, like any other faith, the Rastafarian 23 faith is divided up into groups? 24 A Yeah. To the Catholic Church, bread and wine 25 might be a sacrament, and other Christian groups 188 1 they're not. 2 696 Q All right. So similarly with the Rastafarians? 3 A Well, Rastafarians, all Rastafarians recognize 4 cannabis as a sacrament. 5 697 Q But you're not Rastafarian? 6 A I'm not a Rastafarian. 7 698 Q All right. Earlier this morning I asked -- 8 A I'm a member of the Church of the Universe. 9 699 Q Well, you've said that. 10 A Yeah. Well, you've asked me if I'm a 11 Rastafarian, so I was assuming that you didn't 12 quite get that point because you're asking me if 13 I'm something else, which I've stated I am not, 14 so yeah. Yeah. 15 700 Q Okay. So this morning -- 16 A Yes. 17 701 Q -- I asked you about, in hindsight, what you 18 would have done differently, and you indicated 19 you had some hindsight following Jocelyn Kula's 20 testimony in her cross-examination? 21 A And also your own -- so far I guess they're just 22 attempts at rejecting affidavits and other 23 information that I would like to see brought in 24 on my case to present a justifiable case to the 25 judge so that he can make a decision based on 189 1 knowledge, not lawyer tricks. 2 702 Q Sorry, do you mean me personally when you say 3 "your own"? 4 A Well, you're the counsel representing the Health 5 Canada. It's you that has brought these issues 6 forward to me, so I mean you, yeah, you. 7 703 Q When you made your request, did you expect it to 8 be granted? 9 A I expected that they would give it more 10 consideration, and I hoped that they would grant 11 it. I think that -- I think that my rights are 12 totally justifiable, that I am in the right on 13 this case and that Health Canada, whether I drag 14 them through this process by them not doing 15 their jobs and taking it to the courts as I 16 have, will be made to follow that right, and I 17 believe that I am right, you know, and even in a 18 case where I lose, say that happens, it wouldn't 19 be a statement on my religious beliefs, it 20 wouldn't be a statement on the validity of the 21 tree of life, it would a statement on the 22 corruption of the courts themselves. 23 704 Q You said, though, that when you made your 24 section 56 request, which is the subject matter 25 of this judicial review, that you expected that 190 1 it would be refused and that it was your intent 2 to pursue it in the federal courts, haven't you? 3 A I may have said that. I can't say for sure, but 4 I may have said that. 5 705 Q That's what you believed going into it? 6 A I believed if they rejected it that I would 7 pursue a case through the courts if they 8 rejected it, yes. 9 706 Q Your intent was to pursue a case through the 10 courts? 11 A My intent was to get an exemption 56. I would 12 have hoped that rather than forcing me to the 13 courts, if Health Canada had any concerns about 14 my exemption request, that they would take the 15 courtesy of me, a Canadian citizen, a taxpayer, 16 to follow-up with those concerns by requesting 17 more information to review and try to understand 18 where I'm coming from. None of that took place. 19 707 Q So is your evidence today that you didn't go 20 into the 56 request process planning to pursue 21 the matter in the court as opposed to expecting 22 that your exemption would be granted? 23 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object to that question. 24 He has already answered that. He answered it 25 just a few seconds ago, and we can read it back 191 1 if you'd like. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, let's read it back. I find 3 some of the answers hard to know whether they 4 were actually answered or not. 5 (COURT REPORTER READS BACK ANSWER TO QUESTION 6 706) 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 708 Q Well, I think you have actually answered the 9 question. My difficulty is that it's my 10 understanding that you've previously said that 11 you didn't expect your exemption to be granted 12 and that your purpose was to pursue a charter 13 challenge in the court. 14 A I may have said that. I don't recall saying 15 that specifically. I certainly understood that 16 an exemption turned down did open it up to a 17 judicial review of these charter issues, and so 18 I did understand that. I had hoped, however, 19 that they would just grant me my exemption and 20 leave it at that. 21 So I had hopes that they would grant my 22 exemption and knowledge that in lieu of a 23 refusal of my request that I had other avenues 24 open to pursue justice as I saw it. 25 It's all part of the exemption process, as 192 1 I understand it. 2 709 Q I'm just going to take a moment. 3 Can you turn to your affidavit, please, and 4 set your statutory declaration next to your 5 affidavit. I'm going to ask you some questions 6 about comparing the two. 7 A Yeah. 8 710 Q So your affidavit is -- 9 MR. TOUSAW: The affidavit is marked Exhibit 1. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 11 711 Q -- Exhibit 1, and the statutory declaration is 12 Exhibit A to Jocelyn Kula's affidavit, which is 13 marked as Exhibit 5. 14 A You want that out as well? 15 712 Q You've got it. 16 MR. TOUSAW: You've got it right there. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 18 713 Q You've got them. 19 A Okay. Okay. 20 714 Q All right. So you prepared your affidavit after 21 you had prepared your statutory declaration? 22 A Yeah. 23 715 Q I mean, it's significant months later? 24 A M'mm-hmm. 25 716 Q All right. 193 1 MR. TOUSAW: You have to say yes or no. 2 A Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yes. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 717 Q You do have to say yes or no. 5 A Yes. Sorry. 6 718 Q But I note that in your affidavit your first 7 line is: 8 "My name is Christopher Bennett, and I 9 make this statutory declaration." 10 Do you see that there? 11 A Yeah. 12 719 Q Did you cut and paste from your statutory 13 declaration for the purposes of your affidavit? 14 And I don't want to intrude on solicitor/client 15 privilege, but -- I don't think I am. 16 A Yeah. I really -- you know, I really don't 17 know. It's like -- you know, I don't know -- I 18 didn't know I had to remember stuff like that, 19 so I'm sure -- like I looked at this when 20 writing the affidavit. I was pretty familiar 21 with this, and a lot of it was just copied over, 22 but as far as this statement here, I may have 23 like -- you know, I wanted to present a proper 24 application, so I wrote out some rough material, 25 most of which is here, and it may have been -- I 194 1 may have been given further advice on how to 2 properly format it because I wanted to present 3 the best -- the best job I could do, you know. 4 I hired a lawyer to go through the application 5 process. 6 720 Q Do you mean the section 56 request process? 7 A Yeah. 8 721 Q Okay. So now I'm going to ask you about your 9 affidavit which was filed for the judicial 10 review process. 11 A M'mm-hmm. 12 722 Q All right. Those are two different processes in 13 time. You understand that, do you, Mr. Bennett? 14 A Yeah. 15 723 Q You do? 16 A That these are different processes. This is the 17 original request, and this is the affidavit in 18 response to the rejection of the request. 19 724 Q Right. So the first item to which you pointed 20 was Exhibit A to Jocelyn Kula's affidavit, and 21 the second item is your own affidavit filed in 22 this proceeding? 23 A Yes, that's correct. 24 725 Q All right. So what I'm asking you, and I take 25 it you would agree, is you used the wording of 195 1 your statutory declaration as the basis for the 2 wording of your affidavit? 3 A Yes. 4 726 Q All right. Now, I'm going to take you to a 5 couple places where I noticed that the wording 6 was different. 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 727 Q All right? So I am in your affidavit. 9 A M'mm-hmm. 10 728 Q And I noticed, for example, that in paragraph -- 11 hang on. I'm just going to get a different 12 copy -- 3 -- sorry, let's just start with 13 paragraph 2 of your affidavit. 14 A M'mm-hmm. 15 729 Q You say: 16 "I use cannabis for spiritual and 17 religious purposes." 18 And you don't say that in your statutory 19 declaration. Do you see that? 20 A I say "I use cannabis religiously and have done 21 since 1990" in my declaration in paragraph 3. 22 730 Q That's right. 23 A And in paragraph 2: 24 "I use cannabis for spiritual and 25 religious purposes and have done so since 196 1 1990." 2 731 Q Right. So in paragraph -- 3 A What's your issue? 4 732 Q -- 2 of your affidavit -- it's when you're 5 referring to paragraph 2 -- 6 A Yeah. 7 733 Q -- what is your explanation for the difference 8 in language? 9 A I don't know. I just wrote it different. You 10 know, it's like spiritual and religious. I do 11 use it both. I suppose I could have included 12 "spiritual" in the original declaration but I 13 just used "religious," but, you know, the 14 two terms themselves are pretty connected. 15 734 Q So you don't have an explanation, or you don't 16 remember? 17 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. You've asked the 18 question, and he has given an answer. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: It was a non-answer, Mr. Tousaw. It 20 was I think I do both but ... 21 MR. TOUSAW: It was an answer to your question. 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: It wasn't an answer to my question. 23 It was a statement about what he thinks he does. 24 It wasn't an answer as to why there's a 25 difference. 197 1 MR. TOUSAW: You asked a question. The witness gave 2 an answer. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Are you instructing him not to 4 answer? 5 MR. TOUSAW: I'm not instructing him not to answer. 6 He has answered. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I don't think he has. 8 MR. TOUSAW: It's been asked; it's been answered. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: It hasn't been asked and answered. 10 MR. TOUSAW: I don't know if you like the answer or 11 not, but I don't think that's particularly of 12 any moment. 13 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I think it's a non-answer. 14 735 Q Mr. Bennett, I'll ask you the same question. 15 Why in paragraph 3 of your affidavit do you say: 16 "Attached and made part of this affidavit 17 are my books which further outline my 18 research and the foundations of my 19 spiritual and religious beliefs." 20 You don't say that in your statutory 21 declaration, do you? 22 A Okay, you lost me there. You're talking -- what 23 paragraph were you referring to? In the 24 statutory declaration or the affidavit? 25 736 Q I'm looking at your affidavit, and I see that 198 1 you've exhibited your books, and you say they 2 explain the foundation of your beliefs. 3 MR. TOUSAW: And that's at paragraph 3 of the 4 affidavit? 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right? 8 737 Q I want to know why and what your explanation is, 9 more to the point, for having that in your 10 affidavit? 11 A Because I wanted them to be included as evidence 12 in my case. 13 738 Q You felt that the evidence should be different 14 in the judicial review than it was in your 15 section 56 request? 16 A I make reference to the books in -- 17 739 Q Well, you don't actually, Mr. Bennett. You 18 refer to different books in your statutory 19 declaration. 20 MR. TOUSAW: If you could allow the witness to answer 21 the question before you interrupt him, it would 22 probably make things a lot smoother here today. 23 A M'mm-hmm. Yeah. I do mention the two books, 24 Green Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic 25 & Religion referred to in paragraph 3 of the 199 1 affidavit and in paragraphs 4 [sic] of the 2 statutory declaration. As well, I refer to Sex, 3 Drugs, Violence and the Bible in paragraph 4 of 4 the original request and in paragraph 3 of the 5 affidavit. 6 What I do not refer to is Cannabis and the 7 Soma Solution, which is due to the fact that in 8 2008 when I filed the request that book was just 9 being started, whereas in 2009 when I filed the 10 affidavit in response to the case I had been 11 working on that book for over a year or so, 12 about a year or so, and it was close to being 13 finished and was -- I had already acquired a 14 publisher that wanted to publish it. 15 So that's the reason why it's not included 16 in my original affidavit. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 18 740 Q I'm actually more interested in your book Green 19 Gold, which you told me today is a book you 20 don't agree with. I notice that you don't 21 say -- or fully agree with. There are portions 22 in it with which you don't agree. You said 23 that, didn't you? 24 A I said there were a couple of small things in 25 that large book that I have changed my view on, 200 1 yes. 2 741 Q Oh, so just a couple small things? 3 A Yeah, I'd say, yeah, a couple, two or three -- I 4 don't know. I'd have to reread the book, to 5 tell you the truth, but as far as I know the 6 points of view that I no longer share regard the 7 role of cannabis in the preparation of the 8 sacrament soma and the role of cannabis in the 9 new world prior to occupation by the old world. 10 742 Q So what is your explanation for not exhibiting 11 Green Gold to your affidavit? 12 A In the original statutory declaration? 13 743 Q No, in your affidavit to the judicial review. 14 A It is there. It says Green Gold the Tree of 15 Life: Marijuana in Magic & Religion. I didn't 16 provide it with the affidavit because I didn't 17 have any copies of it. I have to buy copies at 18 200 bucks a pop off Amazon if I want to get a 19 copy of my book, and that's probably what Health 20 Canada paid for the copy of my book that they 21 acquired after rejecting my exemption when they 22 found it prudent to research my case some more. 23 744 Q Yeah, your book isn't available on Amazon. 24 You've explained why. 25 A I was talking about Sex, Drugs, Violence and the 201 1 Bible which is available on Amazon, and Green 2 Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic is 3 available on Amazon. Go to Amazon right now and 4 search for those books. You will find it. I 5 said that I am not selling it through Amazon, 6 not that it wasn't available through Amazon. 7 You can get a copy of Sex, Drugs, Violence and 8 the Bible. I think the last time I saw it on 9 Amazon it was about $150. 10 745 Q Green Gold is out of print and not available on 11 Amazon. You've said that already. 12 A Well, it has been. No, as far as I know, there 13 is likely copies on Amazon, and we can settle 14 this right now by looking on a computer and 15 seeing. The last time I looked, which wasn't 16 that long ago, it appeared to me that there were 17 copies available on Amazon. Copies come and go. 18 Maybe it's not there today, but next week 19 somebody who has a book and a copy of it that 20 wants to sell it, a book seller, can put it on 21 Amazon and it becomes there available on Amazon. 22 So it has been available on Amazon. I 23 don't know if it is there today, but in recent 24 memory it has been there, and I assume soon it 25 will be there again. 202 1 746 Q Paragraph 4, let's -- 2 MR. TOUSAW: Just to interject, it's there now. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I looked, and it wasn't there 4 when I looked. Is that the Green Gold book or 5 the Sex, Drugs book? 6 MR. TOUSAW: Green Gold. It's the fourth hit on 7 Amazon. It looks like 13 new and used from 8 94.65. 9 THE WITNESS: And Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible 10 is there as well. 11 MR. TOUSAW: You will be happy to know it's four and 12 a half stars. 13 THE WITNESS: Good. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'm not sure what to make, 15 Mr. Tousaw, of your evidence, but I'm going to 16 move on. 17 MR. TOUSAW: No, I was just trying to help you out. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Well, maybe you should look more 19 thoroughly and then come back -- 20 MR. TOUSAW: No, no. You don't -- 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: No, no, that's fine. 22 747 Q Mr. Bennett, is there something you would like 23 to say? 24 A I just think that you didn't really look very 25 thoroughly for that. Maybe we can find out if 203 1 it was never there. Maybe we should take a look 2 at that and see if perhaps you weren't correct 3 in your assessment. 4 748 Q Paragraph 4 of your affidavit, can you explain 5 why you added the sentence which does not appear 6 in your statutory declaration: 7 "I also sincerely believe that cannabis is 8 a sacrament and is used to aid spiritual 9 and religious practice." 10 A I'm just going to look through my original 11 declaration because maybe it doesn't coincide 12 from paragraph 4 to paragraph 4. 13 749 Q Sure. 14 A But as I recall ... 15 MR. TOUSAW: Read the whole thing if you need to. 16 A Yeah. Yeah, I would say paragraph 19: 17 "Over 18 years later after collecting 18 two massive volumes of documentation and 19 with considerable academic support, I find 20 myself believing in the veracity of my 21 religious experience and the revelations." 22 And when I'm making that statement, that is 23 because I also sincerely believe that cannabis 24 is a sacrament and its use and aid -- that's not 25 a very properly written sentence, sorry -- 204 1 sacrament and its use as an aid to spiritual and 2 religious practice, and that is based upon my 3 research that I compiled at the time of the 4 original request over 18 years and that that is 5 the support for that statement. 6 I make that statement because I have 7 knowledge that cannabis has been used as a 8 spiritual sacrament in a lot of religious 9 practices, and that's what that statement is 10 about, and that's why I refer to my books. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 12 750 Q So your explanation is that although those words 13 are not in your statutory declaration, that's 14 what you meant in paragraph 19? 15 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. He just gave you 16 his explanation. I don't think you -- 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: He didn't. 18 MR. TOUSAW: I think you need to recharacterize it. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Mr. Tousaw, I'm a little bit tired 20 of your interjections for the purpose of telling 21 me that he's answered a question he hasn't 22 answered. 23 He has said what his current belief is and 24 what he means by paragraph 4 of his affidavit, I 25 gather, but he certainly hasn't explained why 205 1 it's lacking from 19. I'm trying to understand 2 why it's lacking from 19. 3 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to, again, let you know that 4 there's an objection on the record. You asked a 5 question. He gave the answer. You 6 recharacterized his answer in a new question. 7 That's inappropriate. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: He hasn't answered the question. 9 751 Q And, Mr. Bennett, I'm going to give you an 10 opportunity to explain to me why it is that 11 there are these words in your affidavit which 12 are not in your statutory declaration. 13 A Because I wrote them at separate times. 14 752 Q All right. But -- 15 A If you write something five years ago and you're 16 revisiting that subject, do you write the exact 17 same thing, you know? These were the words that 18 came to my mind when I wrote this document. 19 These are the words that came to my mind when I 20 wrote that document. But they both basically 21 identify the same thing. 22 My research of 18 years into the role of 23 cannabis and religion as identified in Green 24 Gold the Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic & 25 Religion, Cannabis and the Soma Solution and 206 1 Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible clearly and 2 thoroughly delineates a role of cannabis in 3 spiritual and religious practices, and that is 4 what I'm referring to in paragraph 19 as being a 5 support for my belief system. 6 753 Q I understand what you say in paragraph 19 of 7 your statutory declaration is what you now say 8 support for your belief system. I'm just 9 curious as to how it is when you say your words 10 in your affidavit were the words that occurred 11 to you then, they track to a letter the words of 12 your statutory declaration but then have some 13 additions? 14 A I don't recall why I did that. I don't know. 15 Maybe I just thought -- I don't really know why 16 I did it, to tell you the truth. I was just 17 putting them together and looking at it and 18 trying to come up with the best document that I 19 could come up with, and at that time that was 20 what I put out. 21 But as far as having some sort of 22 premeditated motivation on any of it, no, I 23 wouldn't really say that. It's just the way I 24 put it together. 25 Looking at this, I had this to work with, 207 1 should I adjust it, all that type of stuff, but 2 as far as thoughts that came into my head why I 3 was changing that thing, I can't recall why I 4 explained it in a different way than I did in 5 paragraph 19, although I would say they both 6 basically identify the same situation. 7 754 Q Well, let's turn to another difference. 8 Paragraph 21 of your affidavit. 9 A M'mm-hmm. 10 755 Q "The fact that my spiritual and religious 11 practices are prohibited by the criminal 12 law causes me significant emotional and 13 psychological anguish." 14 Where is that in your statutory declaration? 15 A It's not in there. I didn't think I really 16 needed to include it with my request as I felt 17 my request was very straightforward, but upon 18 the rejection of my request I felt a need to 19 more fully express what the rejection of my 20 original request resulted in. 21 756 Q I don't understand your answer, Mr. Bennett. 22 You felt that you had to explain what the 23 rejection resulted in? 24 A Yeah. Well, how the rejection affected my life. 25 757 Q Ah. So what is this psychological anguish? 208 1 Have you been diagnosed with something? 2 A Psychological anguish in the form of anxiety and 3 depression. I've never been clinically treated 4 for anything like that, but I was definitely 5 saddened by the rejection and anxiety in the 6 sense of the threat to my safety. You know, 7 I've put myself out there. 8 758 Q So that's something you felt after the 9 rejection, and that's why? 10 A I felt it before, but I didn't see, I suppose, 11 it being needed in my request because I clearly, 12 I felt, delineated a religious belief in my 13 sacramental use of cannabis, and I had thought 14 that the freedom of religion was based more upon 15 that than my fears and angst about getting 16 busted. 17 759 Q Have you received any treatment for your 18 anxiety? 19 A Well, I use cannabis medicinally, as I've 20 described in my original statutory declaration, 21 and part of that is alleviation of angst, 22 depression and things like that. 23 760 Q Any other treatment? 24 A No, I haven't. 25 761 Q Have you used any other controlled substances? 209 1 A In my life, yeah, sure, I have used other 2 controlled substances. 3 762 Q Give me some examples. 4 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object. It's completely 5 irrelevant to this judicial review, and the 6 witness didn't put anything in that affidavit, 7 so it's irrelevant to his affidavit. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 9 763 Q Did they relieve your anxiety, these other 10 controlled substance? 11 A Not like cannabis does. 12 764 Q Do they relieve it at all? 13 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection. 14 A Controlled substances, no, I don't know, nothing 15 I can think of, no. 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 17 765 Q No? Do they increase your anxiety? 18 MR. TOUSAW: Same objection. You can answer if you 19 want to. 20 A Yeah, I don't know. I would say that they have 21 increased my awareness, and I have felt things 22 like global angst under the influence of those 23 things, but rather I'd say most of my experience 24 with these different entheogenic plants has been 25 positive and beneficial and made me a better 210 1 person and more conscious [sic] person. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 3 766 Q Are there individuals in the course of your 4 research that you have encountered that believe 5 that other plants are the tree of life? 6 A I had a member of the Santo Daime Church tell me 7 that he thought that the ayahuasca vine was the 8 tree of life, but upon reading my book he told 9 me that he agreed with my assumptions in my 10 book. 11 767 Q That being that cannabis is the tree of life? 12 A Yeah. 13 768 Q So the historical description of the tree of 14 life he thought initially was ayahuasca, and he 15 changed his views in light of your research? 16 A Yes, yes, as I understand it from my 17 conversations. 18 769 Q Are there -- I think your books refer to them. 19 There are other scholars who believe the tree of 20 life is some other plant, aren't there? 21 A Yes. 22 770 Q What are some of the -- 23 A Some people -- 24 771 Q Sorry, let me finish my question. 25 A I'm sorry. 211 1 772 Q What are some of the plants that have been 2 suggested as candidates for the tree of life? 3 A As with soma, the amanita muscaria has been 4 suggested. 5 773 Q And that's a mushroom? 6 A That's a mushroom. 7 774 Q M'mm-hmm. 8 A The acacia tree has been suggested. 9 775 Q Is that a psychoactive substance? 10 A I believe that acacia bark has 11 dimethyltryptamine, the active ingredient of the 12 ayahuasca brew in it. 13 776 Q Anything else suggested? 14 A Not as far as I recall. But the possibility 15 that other plants have been suggested is 16 definitely both likely and possible. 17 777 Q And there are scholars researching this? 18 A These topics, the identification of the soma, 19 the identification of the tree of life are a 20 matter of scholarly debate. 21 778 Q Getting back to these differences in your 22 affidavit, is your affidavit, in your view, 23 better evidence than your statutory declaration? 24 MR. TOUSAW: I'm going to object to the extent that 25 that calls for the witness to draw a conclusion 212 1 on legal relevance. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Fair enough. I'll try to get at it 3 in a way that doesn't ask him to do that. 4 779 Q What I'm trying to get at, Mr. Bennett, is 5 whether you feel that by providing these 6 additional statements in your affidavit you have 7 better explained your case for a section 56 8 request? 9 A I suppose that any time that I'm asked to 10 revisit the situation I think about it with the 11 knowledge I have in hindsight based upon what 12 I've already done, such as my statutory 13 declaration, and I take that into consideration 14 as well as any new information that I have 15 accumulated regarding the religious, spiritual 16 use of cannabis in the meantime. 17 780 Q I'm going to try something I haven't done 18 before, which is I'm gong to show you a video. 19 A Sure. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So maybe we'll go off the record 21 while I set things up. 22 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:38 P.M.) 23 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:50 P.M.) 24 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 25 781 Q So, Mr. Bennett, we're back after a break. Did 213 1 you talk to anyone about your evidence -- 2 A No, I did not. 3 782 Q -- during the break? I have to finish my 4 question. 5 A Oh, sorry. 6 783 Q During the break did you talk to anyone about 7 your evidence? 8 A No, I did not. 9 784 Q All right. I'm going to show you a video, but 10 just to refresh your memory as to what I was 11 asking you about, I had asked you some questions 12 about whether you made your section 56 exemption 13 request anticipating that it would be refused, 14 and I'm going to play you an extract from a 15 video. I will just play it and then ask you 16 some questions about it. 17 MR. TOUSAW: Before you hit play -- 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: M'mm-hmm. 19 MR. TOUSAW: -- to the extent that this is a portion 20 of what appears to be a longer video, I may at 21 the end of it have an objection that the witness 22 ought to be able to review the entire video 23 because obviously when you pick a small section 24 out of a larger piece there may be relevant 25 material before or after, but I say "may" 214 1 because ... 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yeah, and let's see -- and I mean 3 one of my proposals would be if when we exhibit 4 materials we could exhibit the portion. That's 5 a possibility as well. 6 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So let me know, and let me play it 8 first, and then we can talk about it. 9 All right. 10 785 Q Are you listening? 11 A Listening. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: If I can get it to play now. After 13 all that. Come on. It was playing earlier. I 14 had it going. 15 (VIDEO PLAYED) 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So I'm just going to stop it there. 17 And, again, Mr. Tousaw -- 18 MR. TOUSAW: That's fine. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- you're welcome to make an 20 objection. 21 786 Q But I'll just confirm, Mr. Bennett, this is a 22 video of you? 23 A M'mm-hmm. 24 787 Q You recognize -- you have to say yes or no for 25 the record. 215 1 A Yes, I do, yeah. 2 788 Q You recognize yourself in the video? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 789 Q And this is a speech you gave at something 5 called the Hempology 101 Society? 6 A Yes, at the Vancouver Island University. 7 790 Q Is this the March 2010 speech that you were 8 referring to earlier -- 9 A Yes, it is. 10 791 Q -- in your testimony today? 11 A Yes, it is. 12 792 Q All right. And you were able to hear what you 13 said there? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 793 Q So you stated "and we thought we'd get turned 16 down," referring to your section 56 exemption 17 request? 18 A Yes. We thought it was a possibility, for sure. 19 794 Q Well, you thought it was a possibility or a 20 probability, sir? 21 A Well, given the way Canada has treated cannabis 22 things in the past, and I'm also making this 23 statement in hindsight of my rejection, not 24 prior to my rejection, I think that's a pretty 25 realistic assertion that I thought that they 216 1 would look at reasons why to reject my exemption 2 because it's a very controversial subject, and 3 so, yeah, definitely, I thought that there was a 4 likelihood that my original request would be 5 rejected and that there were other avenues to 6 pursue after that rejection. I had knowledge of 7 that, yes. 8 795 Q All right. And it was something you had been 9 thinking about since five years previous? 10 A As I stated, my -- going back into the 90s I had 11 been -- hoped to see some sort of judicial 12 decision regarding cannabis and freedom of 13 religion. Since mid 2004 or 5, I guess, after 14 the medical marihuana exemption process had been 15 established, I began to consider and possibly 16 even work towards to some extent producing some 17 sort of exemption request in relation to the 18 spiritual cannabis use and thinking that it 19 would likely go through the same sort of process 20 that the medical marihuana thing did. 21 As I recall, I think the initial requests 22 were rejected for medical marihuana, and maybe 23 even -- the exemption process may have even been 24 involved in a criminal case. It might have 25 developed out of that. I can't really recall 217 1 the exact origins now, but yeah, I knew that 2 that was a possible remedy for rejection, a 3 judicial review. 4 796 Q In this extract you also mentioned that you've 5 got three professors that have read your books 6 and know you to write affidavits? 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 797 Q Do you have a personal relationship with Carl 9 Ruck? 10 A Well, I haven't -- 11 MR. TOUSAW: Can I just -- are you going to use this 12 again or can we close it because the 13 high-pitched whine is really sort of ... 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I am going to use it again and 15 fairly soon, and then after that -- 16 MR. TOUSAW: Okay. That's fine then. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yeah. Okay. 18 A M'mm-hmm. I came into contact with Carl Ruck 19 actually after some information from my book was 20 excerpted in one of his without proper 21 referencing, and so I contacted him about that, 22 and from that we began a course of dialogue, and 23 I sent him a copy of my book Sex, Drugs, 24 Violence and the Bible which he reviewed in the 25 London, England Sunday Times, and then after 218 1 that we continued to correspondence and 2 continued to correspond, but the actual time 3 I've spent in Carl Ruck's physical presence is 4 probably a few hours in total. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 6 798 Q All right. 7 A So he is not like a close friend of mine or 8 anything like that, and as far as I know, 9 Professor Carl Ruck himself does not partake of 10 cannabis, nor have I ever shared cannabis with 11 Professor Carl Ruck. 12 799 Q All right. Professor Tom Roberts, is that one 13 of the individuals to whom you are referring in 14 this extract from your speech at Hempology 101? 15 A Yes. Yes, it is. 16 800 Q Yeah. And do you have any sort of personal 17 relationship with Mr. Roberts or Professor 18 Roberts? 19 A Professor Roberts I met when I was organizing 20 the first entheogenesis conference, and he 21 contacted me and requested that he be able to 22 give a presentation at this event. 23 801 Q Sorry, is this one of the conferences you 24 referred to taking place when you were manager 25 of Pot-TV? 219 1 A Yes. Yes, it is. 2 802 Q So one of those two conferences? 3 A One of those two conferences. 4 803 Q All right. 5 A And he came out to Vancouver. He had already, 6 prior to this event and my meeting him, read and 7 reviewed the book Green Gold the Tree of Life: 8 Marijuana in Magic & Religion, and this appears 9 on his website. I think it's called 10 cresnotherapy [sic] or something like that, and 11 then met him in person when he came out for the 12 entheogenesis conference, and again probably in 13 total my personal communication in person with 14 Professor Roberts is at most an hour or two of 15 personal contact, but we have continued to 16 correspond here and there via e-mail, and I am 17 on his mailing list, but he is not a close 18 friend of mine, you know. He's more of a fellow 19 researcher. 20 804 Q And you mentioned that you hadn't shared 21 cannabis with Professor Ruck. Have you shared 22 cannabis with Professor Roberts? 23 A As I recall I have not, but the last time I met 24 Professor Ruck -- 25 805 Q Roberts. 220 1 A -- Professor Roberts, sorry, was back in like 2 2003/2004, and this was at a very busy 3 conference where there was lots of other people 4 and lots of cannabis being shared, and so I 5 can't say for sure that I never did, but as far 6 as I know I don't even know if Professor Tom 7 Roberts smokes cannabis. 8 806 Q All right. I have another extract. Oh, 9 something very strange just happened. 10 MR. TOUSAW: You just -- yeah. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. I'm just going to move 12 forward. I'm hoping that I'm roughly at the 13 right spot. Let's just play that and see. 14 (VIDEO PLAYED) 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: That's where this particular extract 16 ends. 17 807 Q So is this some expert testimony you've given 18 recently? 19 A The expert testimony that I'm referring to, that 20 was before April 14th, and the lawyers later 21 decided not to call upon me as a witness. 22 808 Q Oh, all right. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So I have this one I'm just going to 24 forward to the very end as well. So you can see 25 in the still picture this is a continuation of 221 1 your presentation Hempology 101, and I will just 2 play the extract, and you can confirm if it is 3 in fact a continuation of your presentation, and 4 we have to wait for the media player to catch 5 up. It says "paused." 6 (VIDEO PLAYED) 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Wait. We just missed it. 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Sorry, let me move back. 10 MR. TOUSAW: That's the standing ovation he received 11 at the end of the presentation. 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: It is. All right. Let's see if 13 this is -- finding the tail end one is a little 14 tricky. 15 (VIDEO PLAYED) 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 17 809 Q I asked you about this statement earlier. 18 A Yeah. 19 810 Q You confirm that you made it? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So, Mr. Tousaw, I mean I can either 22 exhibit the whole of the thing or I can exhibit 23 the portions. I'm happy to exhibit the 24 portions. I just have to speak to somebody with 25 some more information and technology experience 222 1 than myself. 2 MR. TOUSAW: Let's shelve that for the time being. I 3 want to review the entire presentation to 4 determine whether or not the additional material 5 sheds some context on the statements that you 6 asked Mr. Bennett about. 7 My sense is if we're going to put a portion 8 of it in, we should put the whole thing in, but 9 that being said, let me review it before and 10 take some instructions. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. I do have one more 12 portion, and I just want to confirm, 13 Mr. Bennett, that it's something you said. 14 MR. TOUSAW: Of the same presentation? 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: From the same presentation, but an 16 earlier portion. I didn't seem to get the right 17 one up. Go off the record while I try to do 18 this. 19 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD) 20 (VIDEO PLAYED) 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 22 811 Q Rousing applause for that. 23 So, Mr. Bennett, are you the star of your 24 own movie? 25 A Yes, I'm the star of my own movie. 223 1 812 Q And what is your movie about? 2 A My movie is about making way for the tree of 3 life. 4 813 Q We actually have some more, but, Mr. Bennett, I 5 think what I'll do next is ask you -- we've 6 spoken a little bit about cannabisculture.com. 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 814 Q Is that something that's run out of the same 9 office as Marc Emery's shop? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 815 Q So it's the same building or the same physical 12 office space? 13 A Same floor. 14 816 Q Same floor. 15 A Separated office. 16 817 Q All right. Are they separated by actual full 17 walls or by dividers? I'm just curious about 18 the set up. 19 A There's a wall with glass doors separating it 20 from the store side of the operation. 21 818 Q That's Mr. Emery's store side? 22 A Yeah. Not my store. 23 819 Q All right. 24 A So there's a -- a stairway in the middle back 25 end of the building. 224 1 820 Q M'mm-hmm. 2 A There's walls all along the stairway. 3 821 Q M'mm-hmm. 4 A And then adjoining my -- my store is on one side 5 of that stairwell at the back of Mr. Emery's 6 store and Mr. Emery's Cannabis Culture HQ, or I 7 suppose it's Jodie Emery's Cannabis Culture HQ 8 at this point -- 9 822 Q That's Mrs. Emery? 10 A Mrs. Emery. 11 823 Q M'mm-hmm. 12 A -- is on the other side, and there is an open 13 doorway between the two spaces and one open 14 doorway on my back end right-hand side and one 15 open doorway on their back end left-hand side 16 and then the staircase in between the two office 17 spaces. 18 824 Q And do you store any cannabis on the premises? 19 A Do I store any there? No, I do not. 20 825 Q Any cannabis that you have on the premises, 21 would it be on your person? 22 A Would be on my person. 23 826 Q From the Cannabis Culture website I've taken the 24 liberty of printing out a document called 25 "Cannabis Holy War." Is that something that you 225 1 recognize? 2 A Yeah. I believe that's an article, maybe 3 somebody -- 4 827 Q And article by somebody Jeremiah Vandermeer? 5 A Yes, that's correct. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. We can mark that as an 7 exhibit. What we'll do is before we mark this 8 as an exhibit, let's mark this DVD as an exhibit 9 as well. Mr. Tousaw -- 10 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- I only have the one copy at the 12 moment. I will make copies for you -- 13 MR. TOUSAW: That's fine. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- and provide them. 15 EXHIBIT 6: DVD of a speech Mr. Bennett gave to 16 the Hempology 101 Society in March 2010 17 MR. TOUSAW: Do you have another copy of "Cannabis 18 Holy War"? 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I do. 20 MR. TOUSAW: Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS: So can I put the affidavit and 22 declaration aside now and just focus on this 23 document, or you'll be referring to that or? 24 MR. TOUSAW: Yeah, set those aside. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yeah. Why don't you set those aside 226 1 for now. 2 MR. TOUSAW: So the video is Exhibit 6. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 4 828 Q And I don't want to stop you from consulting a 5 document if you feel you need to. I don't want 6 to -- 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 829 Q -- you know, limit you in any way. All right. 9 So this appears to be an article by Jeremiah 10 Vandermeer? 11 A M'mm-hmm. 12 MR. TOUSAW: Yes or no? 13 A Yes. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 15 830 Q Yes or no. 16 Do you remember his interviewing you for 17 the article? 18 A Yes, I do roughly. 19 831 Q Did he interview you by e-mail? 20 A Yes, I think he asked me some questions in 21 e-mail. He also used a recording device and 22 talked to me in person as well. 23 832 Q So these answers on the last four pages of the 24 document where it says "Chris Bennett" and "CB," 25 do you see that? 227 1 A Yeah. 2 833 Q Are those answers you provided by e-mail? 3 A As I recall, I think those are the answers that 4 I provided via audio recording device. 5 834 Q Okay. So those are not your e-mail answers, or 6 you're not sure one way or the other? I'm just 7 trying to understand. 8 A I'm pretty sure that these answers are my 9 recorded audio answers, but whether he amended 10 them with statements from some e-mails or 11 something if he felt there was something that 12 fit in, I can't say for sure without going over 13 my own records. 14 835 Q Had you looked at the article before today's 15 cross-examination? 16 A I think I gave it a quick review initially after 17 publication but didn't really look at it too 18 much, no. 19 836 Q It's posted on your blog, isn't it? 20 A Yeah. This isn't part of my blog. This was an 21 article that appeared on the same site that my 22 blog is on. 23 837 Q Yeah. You referred to it in your blog, though, 24 didn't you? 25 A I may have had a link to it and referred to it 228 1 in my blog, but it is not a blog entry. 2 838 Q I understand the difference. It's not something 3 that you physically entered into your blog. 4 It's something to which your blog was linked? 5 A Yeah. 6 839 Q All right. The statements that you make in your 7 answers, and I take it those are the answers 8 labelled "CB"? 9 A Yes. 10 840 Q Right. I will have you look at the second from 11 last page. All right? 12 A M'mm-hmm. 13 841 Q There's the second from the bottom entry marked 14 "CB." Do you see that? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 842 Q And it starts with the words "I definitely don't 17 believe in things like." 18 A M'mm-hmm. M'mm-hmm. 19 843 Q All right. That appears to echo your evidence 20 today? 21 A M'mm-hmm. 22 844 Q Is that an accurate statement? 23 MR. TOUSAW: You have to say yes or no. 24 A Yes. Sorry. 25 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 229 1 845 Q You do have to say yes or no. 2 A Sorry. Yes. 3 846 Q I myself am forgetting that. 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Thank you, Mr. Tousaw. 5 847 Q So that appears to echo your evidence today 6 about your belief in the collective conscious? 7 A I'm just reading the statement. 8 848 Q M'mm-hmm. 9 A Yes, it does. 10 849 Q All right. So we've had some back and forth in 11 terms of questions and answers, and I just want 12 to be sure that that then summarizes that belief 13 accurately? 14 A That is a short description. To summarize it 15 accurately I would suggest that you read the 16 conclusion to my book Sex, Drugs, Violence and 17 the Bible where I go into much more detail 18 describing my beliefs about the collective 19 consciousness and how it relates to my belief 20 system. 21 850 Q Right. Turning the page, the very last 22 paragraph that is not in italics, so it says "I 23 don't want to just prove," are you there? 24 A Yeah. 25 851 Q All right. Is that something that you said? 230 1 A Yes. Yes, it is. 2 852 Q Yeah. Do you believe that statement is true? 3 A I believe that's my wish, yes. 4 853 Q Is it your wish that it be true, or is it a true 5 statement? 6 A I want to bring expert witnesses and show that 7 cannabis is the religion. I want to. I wish 8 to. 9 854 Q Right. 10 A Do you understand the juxtaposition of those 11 terms, like I want/I wish? So yeah, that's what 12 I want definitely. 13 855 Q Right. And that's because you believe that 14 cannabis is the religion? 15 A Definitely I believe cannabis is the true 16 perennial religion. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Those are my questions about this 18 document. I do want that one marked, yes, 19 please. 20 EXHIBIT 7: Article by Jeremiah Vandermeer 21 entitled "Cannabis Holy War" 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 23 856 Q Can we go back, please, to the document that 24 dealt with the cannabis competition. I think 25 that was Exhibit 4. 231 1 There's a list at the end of that document 2 of, I gather, the prize winning cannabis 3 strains. 4 A Right. 5 MR. TOUSAW: I don't want to give evidence. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Sorry? 7 MR. TOUSAW: Can we go off the record for a second? 8 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD) 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 10 857 Q Mr. Tousaw has corrected me and said there can't 11 have been 142 prize winners. 12 I gather that's a list of the competing 13 strains of cannabis? 14 A Yeah, I suspect it is. I couldn't say for sure 15 what was entered in the 142 strains, but I have 16 no reason to believe it's not. 17 858 Q Do you recognize those as the common names for 18 some strains of cannabis? 19 A Yeah, I do recognize a lot of the names on 20 there. There's some names I just don't 21 recognize really. 22 859 Q So you recognize names like I think blueberry? 23 A I recognize that one. But I don't doubt they're 24 strain names of cannabis. 25 860 Q Okay. You saved me the trouble of trying to go 232 1 through it. 2 A I just -- you know, I just can't recall it. 3 861 Q I'm not familiar with the process, but I gather 4 that there is hybridization of cannabis that 5 takes place to create these strains? 6 A Yes, that's right, as far as I know. 7 862 Q All right. So there are growers, and perhaps 8 you yourself when you were a grower did this, 9 you crossbreed the different strains? 10 A No, I never took my cannabis-growing abilities 11 to that point where I was crossbreeding and 12 naming strains and stuff like that. 13 863 Q But you're aware there are people that do this? 14 A Oh, yes. Yes, of course there are. 15 864 Q And that's how some of these strains come to be? 16 A Yes. 17 865 Q Right. Did these strains exist in what I would 18 describe as -- or what you would describe as 19 ancient times? 20 A Would these names apply to them? No. There are 21 three specific types of cannabis: cannabis 22 sativa, cannabis indica and cannabis ruderalis. 23 I prefer the stronger indica strains of 24 cannabis, and cannabis indica that would be on 25 par with this quality of cannabis in the ancient 233 1 world did in fact exist, and we have evidence of 2 2,700-year-old cannabis from China that is very 3 high quality cannabis, very high THC producing 4 cannabis, and that would've been the ancestor to 5 many of these strains. And due to all this 6 hybridization, many growers and many people 7 interested in the seed industry are trying to 8 take it back to that sort of quality and purity. 9 So, you know, that would be my statement on 10 that. 11 866 Q Right. So my question was, these particular 12 strains, did they exist in ancient times or not? 13 I take it you're saying that the ancestor to 14 them existed but not these particular strains? 15 A You know, I really can't answer to that because 16 I just don't have the qualifications regarding 17 plant botany and taxonomy and things like that 18 to really answer that. There may have been DNA 19 duplicates of some of these strains. I really 20 don't know. 21 All cannabis is the production of mixing 22 cannabis ruderalis, cannabis sativa or cannabis 23 indica, and those are the three main strains of 24 cannabis. All cannabis is -- those three 25 cannabis can be interbred and intermixed, and I 234 1 have no reason to doubt that that took place in 2 the ancient world, but if it did take place, 3 definitely names like DutchTreat, Skywalker, 4 Jack X Ortega, Genius Bud, Nebula X Early Girl 5 and other such names were not the names applied 6 to the cannabis in the ancient world. That much 7 is true. 8 Whether there were genetic twins of these 9 plants, I don't know. 10 867 Q Because you're not a botanist? 11 A That's right. 12 868 Q Now, you mentioned you prefer cannabis indica; 13 is that right? 14 A Yes, that's right. 15 869 Q Which you describe as a more powerful cannabis 16 or a stronger cannabis? 17 A It has -- you know, like there's stronger 18 strains of sativa cannabis as well. I prefer -- 19 you know, I'd say the distinguishment would be 20 you kind of get high off sativas and stoned off 21 indicas. 22 I guess I prefer the qualities of indica, 23 although there are times when I use sativas, and 24 I like that for certain things as well. So it's 25 not that I'm opposed to it, but when I'm seeking 235 1 cannabis for my own spiritual consumption, I 2 often look for the indica strains of cannabis. 3 But it's all cannabis. It's like you could have 4 a chihuahua and a Great Dane, but they're both 5 dogs. 6 870 Q And the third strain as well is a cannabis? 7 A Ruderalis, that's correct as well. Ruderalis is 8 thought to be the uncultivated ancestor of the 9 sativa and indica strains, although the 10 cultivation of sativa and indica goes back many 11 thousands of years. 12 871 Q M'mm-hmm. 13 A And there's debate about even the taxonomy and 14 the differentiations between ruderalis, sativa 15 and indica, and some people that are experts in 16 the field say there is only one cannabis and all 17 these other things are dependent on how it is 18 grown and whatnot, in what area of the world it 19 is, that the idea being that you could take a 20 short, broad-leaved, stocky indica plant and 21 leave it in a place like South America for a 22 number of periods of, you know, growing plants, 23 putting it to seed and growing plants and 24 putting it to seed and continuing and you would 25 eventually end up with a more sativa-like 236 1 strain. 2 872 Q Is there points in time during the day when you 3 would consider yourself not to be under the 4 influence of cannabis? 5 A Well, today I'm not under the influence of 6 cannabis anymore, and I sure wish I was because 7 I find this, you know, at points kind of 8 annoying and unpleasant, and given cannabis I 9 probably would just be a lot happier and more 10 congenial, and that goes truthfully in my 11 response to the world. 12 I think that I'd be much more angry about 13 things in the world without cannabis -- cannabis 14 being part of my life; that it kind of, you 15 know, brings me back down, makes me a more 16 compassionate person. 17 873 Q Do you believe right now while you're not under 18 the influence of cannabis that cannabis is the 19 tree of life? 20 A Yes. Yes, I do. 21 874 Q And that all cannabis is the tree of life? 22 A Yes. Yes, I do. 23 875 Q When you are under the influence of cannabis 24 indica, do you believe that cannabis is the tree 25 of life? 237 1 A Yes. Yes, I do. 2 876 Q And when you're under the influence of cannabis 3 sativa do you believe that all cannabis is the 4 tree of life? 5 A Yes. Yes, I do. 6 877 Q I'm going to show you this article from McLeans. 7 I don't know if you'll recall. It's from 2005. 8 A I do recall that article. 9 878 Q I can see you've been looking at it. 10 A Yeah. 11 879 Q You do recall the article. Well, tell me about 12 it. 13 A Well, the -- the author of that article 14 misquoted me a number of times on that. There's 15 completely false statements in there that, here, 16 I can go over with you, complete inaccuracies, 17 nothing that's like to do with my religious use, 18 but just complete inaccuracies about identifying 19 strains perhaps and other things where she just 20 totally did not quote what I said. 21 880 Q Well, I can give you a copy. 22 A Sure. 23 881 Q Let me see if I've got an extra for your 24 counsel. I think I do have some copies here. 25 So you are the Chris Bennett referred to in 238 1 the article; is that right? 2 A Yeah. 3 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So we can mark this one as the next 4 exhibit, but I will ask my questions first, and 5 then we'll mark it. 6 MR. TOUSAW: I don't if the witness's copy is, but my 7 copy is cut off along the right margin. 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Sadly my copy is a little bit cut 9 off on the right margin as well. 10 MR. TOUSAW: Yes. It looks like just one letter. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I think it's not very much, and 12 we'll plunge ahead and see how it goes. All 13 right? 14 882 Q So where is the misquote, Mr. Bennett? 15 A Okay. I'll have to read the article, if you 16 give me just a minute. 17 883 Q Sure. 18 A What do you think it says? "Not only can 19 Bennett diff"? 20 884 Q Would you like me to -- I can, during the break, 21 can get a cleaner copy, but I think it says -- 22 what page are you on, sir? 23 A Page 2 of 5. 24 MR. TOUSAW: It's at the top of -- talking about the 25 first sentence of the second paragraph "not only 239 1 can Bennett diff." 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I think it's differentiate. 3 MR. TOUSAW: That would be my guess. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there's a lot of words missing 5 from this. Maybe you should get a better 6 document. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, why don't I do that during the 8 break, and I can ask you my questions about it 9 afterwards. 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. 11 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So we will take the break, and I 12 will get a better copy. 13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:23 P.M.) 14 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:36 P.M.) 15 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 16 885 Q We're back on the record after a short break 17 where we've cut and paste from the McLeans 18 article so that the full text of the article is 19 on a separate document. The article is called 20 "The Cannabis Connoisseur," and the reporter's 21 name is Julia McKinnell. It's dated November 2, 22 2005. 23 Mr. Bennett, you were beginning to say that 24 you remembered this interview because you feel 25 you were misquoted. 240 1 A Yeah. And so I will read it, and then I will 2 tell you where I was misquoted. 3 MR. TOUSAW: Have we marked it? 4 MS. SOKHANSANJ: We haven't, but perhaps while 5 Mr. Bennett is reading it, we can. 6 MR. TOUSAW: That's a great idea. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And why don't we mark it as a little 8 package -- 9 MR. TOUSAW: Yeah, I think that makes sense. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: -- so that we've got both parts as 11 one document, and we know what the source is. 12 There we are. 13 MR. TOUSAW: That's 8, I think, or 9. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8. 15 EXHIBIT 8: McLeans article entitled "The 16 Cannabis Connoisseur" by Julia McKinnell dated 17 November 2, 2005 and attached copy 18 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 19 886 Q Before you get started, Mr. Bennett, I just want 20 to be clear, you're not the Dan that's referred 21 to? 22 A No, I am not that Dan. 23 887 Q You're the Chris Bennett that's referred to? 24 A M'mm-hmm. 25 888 Q All right. Go ahead. 241 1 A The reference to bongs, yeah, I didn't say that. 2 Bongs are not a European thing. 3 889 Q But do you like bongs? 4 A No, I don't like bongs that much. 5 890 Q All right. You prefer the vaporizer? 6 A I prefer the vaporizer or rolled joints in lieu 7 of not having a vaporizer. 8 891 Q Is that -- the vaporizer, is that something you 9 call a volcano? 10 A That's a particular vaporizer. 11 892 Q Is that one that you like? 12 A Yes, that's my favourite. 13 893 Q All right. It's made out of metal? 14 A Yes, stainless steel, I believe. 15 894 Q What about the statements about the difference 16 between a stone and a high? 17 A Yeah, I think that's a description of the sativa 18 high versus the indica stone. 19 895 Q And that's your understanding of the difference 20 in feelings? 21 A Yeah. 22 896 Q Yeah. And so the high would be the condition 23 that you'd want to be in when you're engaged in 24 your writings? 25 A To tell you the truth, I think I prefer the more 242 1 meditative, focussed mind of the indica. 2 897 Q When would you want to be high? 3 A Maybe if I was going to do some physical labour. 4 898 Q So the high is a more active state? 5 A Yeah, and maybe if I was at a more of a social 6 gathering where there's lots of talking going 7 on, that type of thing. Maybe with the indica I 8 might become more introspective. 9 899 Q More thoughtful? 10 A More thoughtful, which is conducive for the 11 state of mind I like to be in for writing my 12 books. 13 900 Q Is that the state of mind you describe as a 14 spiritual experience? 15 A I would say both of those are spiritual 16 experiences, just variations of that spiritual 17 experience. 18 901 Q Would you describe yourself as a connoisseur? 19 You've been a celebrity judge at cannabis 20 competitions. 21 A Well, I don't know if I would give myself that 22 credibility. I find even during the contest 23 after sampling a few strains of cannabis it 24 became really hard to distinguish the qualities 25 and variations in some respects, so I'm not 243 1 going to call myself a connoisseur. 2 902 Q All right. Those are my questions about this 3 document. 4 Can we go back to your statutory 5 declaration which is Exhibit A to the affidavit 6 of Jocelyn Kula. 7 A M'mm-hmm. 8 903 Q Was it your understanding as you were preparing 9 your section 56 exemption request that the 10 request was for an exemption in the public 11 interest? 12 A I'm sorry, I was just getting to -- 13 904 Q Oh, sorry, yes, once you're there. 14 A Yeah. 15 905 Q So when you were requesting an exemption under 16 section 56, was it your understanding that your 17 request was a public interest exemption request? 18 MR. TOUSAW: For the purpose of the record, I'll 19 interpose an objection to the extent it calls 20 for a legal conclusion, but I think he's able to 21 answer. 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Yeah. 23 A Yeah. I think it's in the public interest 24 myself, but as far as the legal language of what 25 defines "public interest," I'm really not 244 1 qualified to answer that, but in the larger view 2 of my understanding of the term "public 3 interest," most definitely in the public 4 interest. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 6 906 Q I think my question may have not been as clear 7 as it could have been. 8 You didn't see yourself making a request to 9 use cannabis for a medical purpose, did you? 10 A No, I -- well, in the sense that if the tree of 11 life for the healing of the nations and that the 12 medical qualities of cannabis are part of the 13 larger spiritual connotations of the tree of 14 life as I refer to in my original affidavit, the 15 declaration, that is part of the relevance of my 16 request. 17 And, you know, it's the tree of life, 18 right, so it's not about an afterlife, it's 19 about this life and the healing qualities of the 20 tree of life, the indications of it both ancient 21 and modern that indicate it has the ability to 22 prolong life, to protect one from cancer, the 23 recent Dr. Donald Tashkin study that found that 24 people that smoked cannabis and marihuana had 25 less of a chance of getting lung cancer than 245 1 people that just smoke tobacco, other evidence 2 that indicates cannabis kills brain cancer, that 3 cannabis is effective for things like breast 4 cancer. All these things are part of the 5 miraculous healing qualities of cannabis, the 6 tree of life and part of my religious use. 7 907 Q So you did see it as a request for an exemption 8 based on medical purposes? 9 A I see it as a request for spiritual -- a 10 spiritual exemption that takes the religious -- 11 I mean the medicinal qualities of cannabis into 12 context, and then that makes it part of the 13 parcel of the whole request. 14 908 Q Did you see your request as being for an 15 exemption for scientific purposes? 16 A No, I -- like do you mean like I was planning to 17 do scientific experiments with the cannabis? Is 18 that what you mean? 19 909 Q Well, section 56 states that an exemption can be 20 granted for medical purposes, scientific 21 purposes or in the public interest, and I'm 22 trying to understand where you saw your request 23 as fitting. 24 A I'd say the public interest under those three 25 definitions. 246 1 910 Q All right. So where in your statutory 2 declaration do you speak to the public interest? 3 MR. TOUSAW: I will interpose an objection again to 4 the extent that that calls for a legal 5 conclusion on whether the statutory declaration 6 fulfills the requirements of section 56. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 8 911 Q So I'm not asking Mr. Bennett to reach any legal 9 conclusion. I want to know where in his 10 statutory declaration as he put it forward he 11 saw himself as putting forward evidence that 12 spoke to the public interest. 13 A Well, you're using the term "public interest." 14 I suppose I kind of thought it was a religious 15 exemption that I was requesting. I don't 16 know -- you know, I'm not familiar with these 17 things, but as I understand it, other religious 18 exemptions have been put forth and that those 19 are qualified under public interest. 20 I think it's in the greater public interest 21 that I not be persecuted for my religious 22 beliefs and that I be left alone to freely 23 practise those beliefs without harming others. 24 912 Q So is the evidence as to public interest in your 25 statutory declaration limited to your evidence 247 1 about your religious beliefs? 2 A No. As I stated, I have material in there 3 relating to the medicinal qualities of cannabis, 4 and as I understand it, the use of cannabis can 5 act as a sort of preventive medicine and help me 6 maintain health and lead a long and healthy 7 life, so I wouldn't say it excludes that. 8 913 Q So that's part of your evidence on the public 9 interest as well? 10 A Sure. 11 914 Q Is that yes? 12 A Yes. 13 915 Q All right. "Sure" is sometimes hard to tell 14 what you're saying, whether you're agreeing that 15 I've asked you a question or agreeing with the 16 result. 17 In your statutory declaration at 18 paragraph 22(O), you say you're aware of 19 potential risks associated with an elevated 20 daily consumption of dried marihuana, including 21 risks with respect to the effect on your 22 cardiovascular and pulmonary system and 23 psycho-motor performance, risk associated with 24 long-term use of marihuana as well as potential 25 drug dependency. 248 1 A I am aware that those risks have been put forth, 2 but I have not experienced a single one of those 3 things in my 30 odd years of cannabis use. 4 916 Q But you don't say that in paragraph 22(O), do 5 you? 6 A No, I do not. 7 917 Q And in fact, in your -- well, I'll -- well, no, 8 I'll go on. 9 In your affidavit filed in this proceeding 10 you also don't say that? 11 A No, I didn't really think I needed to. But I do 12 talk about the medical qualities of cannabis. 13 918 Q Right. And that's part of the reason for which 14 you feel an exemption should be granted to you? 15 A Yes. But I'm more pursuing one based upon my 16 spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs rather 17 than a straight up medicinal ailment. 18 I don't have anything that I'm aware of 19 right now, any sort of physical problems that 20 would constitute under the current definition of 21 the MMAR a need to be given medical marihuana. 22 919 Q And anything that wouldn't fit the definition 23 that makes you feel you need the use of 24 marihuana? 25 A What do you mean? 249 1 920 Q Well, it's just you said the current definition 2 of the MMAR. 3 A Well, usually it's things like Crohn's Disease, 4 glaucoma, a wasting deficiency, AIDS disease, 5 cancer patients. I don't have any of those 6 diseases. I haven't really researched the MMAR 7 and the granting of exemptions. There may be 8 other ailments in there that I do kind of fall 9 under for aches and pains and stuff like that. 10 I'm just not sure what has been granted for 11 what, but from -- from the larger picture and 12 the more general licences that have been 13 granted, it seems to me that most of the people 14 that I know that have been granted exemptions 15 have been granted for things like cancer and 16 AIDS and Crohn's Disease and definable ailments 17 like that, and I do not have any of those 18 definable ailments at this time. 19 921 Q All right. When you talk about people having 20 been granted exemptions, you mean authorizations 21 under the MMAR? 22 A Yes. 23 922 Q All right. Just to be clear about the 24 nomenclature. 25 A Yeah, sorry, bad language. 250 1 923 Q All right. Mr. Bennett, I have another video 2 that I wanted to take you to. 3 A M'mm-hmm. 4 924 Q Thank you. 5 A You must have had to go through a lot of 6 material. 7 925 Q Huh? 8 A I said you must have had to go through a lot of 9 material. I've been at this quite a while. 10 926 Q Just before we get to the video, you recently 11 gave an interview to a television program called 12 The Standard; is that right? 13 A Yes, that's correct. 14 927 Q Was that after this judicial review was 15 commenced? 16 A No, it was before, as far as I recall. I gave 17 that interview in October of 2009. I don't know 18 if I had filed the paperwork for that then or 19 not. 20 928 Q That's all right. October 2009 is fine. I just 21 wasn't quite clear -- 22 A Yeah. 23 929 Q -- on how that fit. 24 During that interview were you asked about 25 the Church of the Universe? 251 1 A I can't recall. 2 930 Q Well, I'll put it to you you were asked about 3 Church of the Universe or spoke about Church of 4 the Universe. 5 A M'mm-hmm. 6 931 Q Did you say that: 7 "The fundamental belief in the Church of 8 the Universe is that cannabis is the tree 9 of life, and members of the Church of the 10 Universe are obligated to promote the use 11 of cannabis as the tree of life, whether 12 that would be through selling hemp 13 clothes, hemp food and providing hemp 14 medicines and stuff like that." 15 A I likely did say that, yes. 16 932 Q And that's something that you would say today as 17 being the case? 18 A Sure. Yes, it is. 19 933 Q All right. So the video I'm going to try to 20 load up here -- I say that because my screen is 21 blank. 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Can we go off the record again? 23 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD) 24 MR. TOUSAW: Just for purposes of the record, same 25 objection I made earlier. To the extent that 252 1 this is a clip of a larger segment, it may be 2 that the entire segment either needs to be in 3 evidence or viewed by the witness in order to 4 properly respond to the questions. That said, 5 let's play it and we'll see what happens. 6 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. So just to be clear, 7 essentially my questions are going to be to 8 confirm that Mr. Bennett said these things. 9 MR. TOUSAW: Fair enough. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: But I'm happy to put in the entire 11 document. In fact, I would propose to do so 12 because it's hard to differentiate between the 13 parts. Let's just go here. 14 So I'm just going to start it running and 15 then stop it. 16 (VIDEO PLAYED) 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So I will just stop it there. 18 934 Q So, Mr. Bennett, this is you in this video, is 19 it not? 20 A Yes, it is. 21 935 Q All right. And this is something that you 22 produced in your role with Pot-TV? 23 A Yes, it is. 24 936 Q You may not recall the exact date, but I will 25 ask you whether it's from August of 2005? 253 1 A It sounds likely. 2 937 Q Yeah. And this act that you just did, I see 3 that you were smoking something. Is this 4 cannabis that you're smoking there? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 938 Q Is this a sacramental use of cannabis here? 7 A Most definitely. 8 939 Q All right. What is it about it that makes it a 9 sacramental use? 10 A Well, it's giving me the religious inspiration 11 for pursing the show, for one thing, and part of 12 my role in my mission to make way for the tree 13 of life is normalizing cannabis use by showing 14 its effects to be not those perpetuated by the 15 proponents of reefer madness and to show that 16 people under its influence can be quite sensible 17 and sane and reasonable and intelligent. 18 940 Q You said that it's giving you the religious 19 inspiration. What's the difference between 20 religious inspiration and other inspiration? 21 A Spiritual inspiration? Yeah, it's divine. It 22 comes from God, I guess, the ... 23 941 Q This is the same collective consciousness that 24 you defined as God earlier? 25 A Yes. Yes. 254 1 942 Q Go to part 3. 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Go off the record while I load it 3 up, please. 4 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD) 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'm going to start playing, if I can 6 get it to play. 7 (VIDEO PLAYED) 8 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I'm just going to stop it here. 9 943 Q So, Mr. Bennett, this is you in this video 10 still? 11 A Yes, it is. 12 944 Q It hasn't changed in any way since the last clip 13 that we saw, and I see that you're starting to 14 say one night I'm working at my job as a night 15 watchman. I take it that this is you talking 16 about the experience that you describe as your 17 epiphany in your affidavit in this proceeding? 18 A That's correct. 19 945 Q All right. 20 MS. SOKHANSANJ: So we'll just listen through to it. 21 (VIDEO PLAYED) 22 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 23 946 Q Can you explain to me what were you checking out 24 about pedophile priests exactly? 25 A Well, when I tried to explain the events that 255 1 led up to my original revelation and was cut off 2 by yourself, I was going into that. I mentioned 3 the Mount Cashel Orphanage event that happened 4 in the 1980s. 5 947 Q But this is in fact, this sequence that you're 6 describing here on the video, is the original 7 revelation that you're referring to in your 8 answer? 9 A Yes. Yes, yes. 10 948 Q There isn't some other revelation that 11 you're referring to in your answer? 12 A Well, I had other religious experiences, but 13 this is all the same revelation that I'm 14 referring to. 15 And prior to finding out about industrial 16 hemp, prior to reading the Bible, prior to 17 joining the Church of the Universe, prior to any 18 of that, there was the situation arose with 19 Mount Cashel Orphanage and the priests molesting 20 young children. 21 And I'd had this experience in the town of 22 Ucluelet where I'd been asked to be the 23 godfather of my niece, and her grandparents on 24 the mother's side were Catholics, and so in 25 becoming the godparent of my niece I was invited 256 1 to the Catholic Church to go through the 2 ceremony. 3 And in the Catholic Church and in front of 4 the priest I had a very peculiar feeling of 5 something not being right and that this not 6 being a good situation, that this wasn't a holy 7 place, and I refrained from repeating any of the 8 passages that the priest had wanted me to repeat 9 in the process, and it made for a very awkward 10 situation for my older brother and other people 11 at the event, and then sometime after this took 12 place, it turned out that that priest was a 13 pedophile. 14 So even in my own hometown there had been a 15 case of pedophilia via the Catholic Church. 16 And my brother's family being native 17 American Indians had been in residential 18 schools, and I talked to them about how they had 19 suffered in this residential school system, and 20 so when the Mount Cashel Orphanage thing -- I 21 wasn't -- as I mentioned earlier in my testimony 22 here, I wasn't really brought up with a lot of 23 religion, I didn't go to church a lot when I was 24 a kid, my parents weren't particularly 25 religious, I was never indoctrinated into any 257 1 religion, which I'm thankful for, and I thought, 2 what is this, I thought this was all supposed to 3 be about God and the holiness but really these 4 guys seem like evil people and this doesn't seem 5 right what's taking place here and it's hard for 6 me to understand what is taking place. 7 And so I bought a Bible. I still have that 8 Bible. It's the Bible I use to research my 9 books. 10 And I began reading that Bible, and it was 11 like so and so begat so and so and yadda, yadda, 12 endless books of lists and other stuff that just 13 didn't really make a lot of sense to me, so 14 shortly after beginning reading it I stuck it 15 aside and placed it in the night watchman office 16 and pretty much forgot about it until this night 17 here where I'm talking about grabbing that Bible 18 and reading the Book of Revelation. 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: All right. Let's continue. 20 (VIDEO PLAYED) 21 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 22 949 Q All right. So I'm just going to stop again. 23 So, Mr. Bennett, this is a video that you made 24 about five years ago. We agreed? 25 A Yes. 258 1 950 Q So was the experience fresher in your mind when 2 you made this video? It's a bit more detailed. 3 A Five years earlier. I guess, you know, I didn't 4 see to go into any greater detail in order to 5 convey my view that cannabis was the tree of 6 life with Revelation. 7 I suppose when I talk and when I write 8 there's a difference of my spoken word versus my 9 written word, what it was five years earlier, so 10 five years closer to the actual event, and I 11 would suggest the passage of time may have 12 altered my memory slightly, but so far it seems 13 I don't see any contradictions in what I'm 14 stating in here and what's stated in my 15 affidavit. 16 Perhaps some minor details are left out, 17 but overall it's all the same story, yeah. I 18 think that it's substantiating my statements. 19 951 Q Some minor details are left out of your 20 affidavit or left out of this description? 21 A Perhaps both. Maybe I have some stuff in my 22 affidavit that when I was speaking here with no 23 script in front of me and going off the top of 24 my head I failed to detail something that's in 25 my affidavit, and perhaps when writing my 259 1 affidavit, trying to make it a reasonable 2 document that wasn't too complex for somebody 3 else to understand, I tried to make it a little 4 shorter than it really -- I could probably write 5 a whole book about my -- my experience of -- you 6 know, if I ever wanted to do that. 7 So yeah, maybe -- maybe there's some 8 differences, I don't know. I don't know. 9 952 Q And your affidavit also, in fairness, is a 10 document that you prepared for the purposes of 11 this judicial review where you're raising a 12 charter challenge, and that's not what the 13 purpose of this was? 14 A Yeah, this was -- well, you know, I'm talking 15 about the possibility of presenting a case. 16 This may have been around the time that 17 discussions were happening with Ed Pearson, so I 18 think I was considering presenting a case. 19 As well, I was talking to two American 20 activists that are religious users that I have 21 known for a very long time, Brother Jeff Brown 22 from the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church and 23 Brother Tom Brown, both who have experienced 24 prison and loss of property in regards to their 25 religious use of cannabis. 260 1 So the show was about -- and, you know, 2 it's not just like getting the exemption. 3 That's not what this show is about. This is 4 like the wider world, organized religion and the 5 damage organized religion is doing in the world 6 and bigger things like that. 7 So, you know, let me be clear, you know, 8 I'm not a friend of the Catholic Church. I'm 9 not a friend of the Torah. I am not a friend of 10 these things, and the tree of life is the alpha 11 and omega of religion, and its appearance now 12 symbolizes in many ways the beginning of the end 13 of those traditions. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Shall we continue? 15 (VIDEO PLAYED) 16 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 17 953 Q I'm just going to stop it there. So I have a 18 couple of questions about this. One, you say I 19 will continue to promote industrial hemp. Were 20 you promoting industrial hemp before this? 21 A I was in the Church of the Universe throughout 22 that period that I'm discussing after the 23 initial day, and I was promoting industrial 24 hemp. My focus at the time was more, as I 25 stated earlier in my testimony, more on 261 1 promoting the industrial applications of hemp 2 because as I saw it that was the first step in 3 the liberation of the tree of life, but 4 throughout that period I myself was a member of 5 the Church of the Universe, I used cannabis 6 sacramentally, and to some small extent I 7 promoted those ideas as well, but it wasn't the 8 forefront. 9 You know, if I was getting interviewed on 10 the news in a story relating -- say like the 11 shows I did with Marketplace and CBC News in the 12 early 90s, I didn't generally refer to my 13 religious use but maintained a focus on the 14 industrial, environmental impact of hemp 15 products. 16 954 Q And that's why most of your publicly available 17 interviews from the period of the early 90s 18 refer to the industrial hemp aspect and not to 19 your religious use? 20 A Yeah, probably most of the interviews, although 21 I suspect that even at that early time it came 22 up. I'd been promoting the idea that cannabis 23 is the tree of life since about 1991, and my 24 first poster on that was done in '91/92, and I, 25 you know, have probably early drafts of material 262 1 I put together regarding that as early as '91 2 that were never published. 3 955 Q My other question for you is, you weren't a 4 religious person prior to this experience has 5 been your testimony? 6 A Well, you know, I couldn't say I wasn't -- like 7 I wasn't a part of a church. 8 956 Q M'mm-hmm. 9 A I wasn't defining myself within a church, but I 10 have always had spiritual inclinations, and I 11 had a vision as a child that I think predicted 12 to some extent my current interest. 13 957 Q How old were you? 14 A I'm guessing 8 or 9 years old. It's a long time 15 ago. It stuck with me, though. 16 958 Q That was a spiritual vision? 17 A Well, in that instance I was shown a seed 18 sprouting from the earth in a dream, and I was 19 told that this was a healing plant, you know, 20 and that was it. 21 It just kind of stuck with me always, and 22 later on when I came across the stuff about 23 cannabis I recognized that dream and even saw 24 the scene I saw in my dream at the beginning of 25 a movie called The Hemp Revolution. 263 1 959 Q Sorry, in your dream when you were a child? 2 A The same scene that I had seen as a child I saw 3 in a movie called The Hemp Revolution. 4 960 Q When you were an adult? 5 A When I was an adult. 6 961 Q All right. So before or after the incident that 7 you describe in this video? 8 A The incident when I was a child happened long 9 before. 10 962 Q No, no, the scene of the movie. 11 A The scene of the movie? Oh, that's all after 12 I'd become a cannabis activist after I'd had 13 this religious experience. You know, that was 14 later, I don't know, 1996 or '97. I'd have to 15 look up the date of the release of The Hemp 16 Revolution, but it was years after I had had 17 this experience. 18 963 Q On the day that you had this experience, how did 19 you know that it was a religious experience? 20 A Well, as I describe, I wasn't sure initially. I 21 had this really powerful experience that light 22 entered my body and that this was the tree of 23 life, but then getting up the next day I had a 24 division created in my own mind between my 25 intuitive and reasoning faculties, and so this 264 1 is what led to my writing the books and 2 researching cannabis. 3 I supposed I thought, well, for sure this 4 hemp stuff is really powerful and really true. 5 I believe that. You know, no matter what, 6 that's -- that's something I need to pursue, and 7 if there -- if cannabis is the tree of life, the 8 real tree of life, not just some sort of 9 faith-based thing like turning bread and wine 10 into the body and blood of the Lord, it's the 11 real thing, then there will be evidence of this 12 in history. 13 And prior, you know, to this time I 14 definitely didn't know about things like Sula 15 Benet's 1936 article regarding kaneh bosem in 16 the Hebrew Bible. I didn't know about Dr. C. 17 Creighton's 1903 article "Evidence of the 18 Hashish Vice in the Old Testament." 19 I didn't know about the German researchers 20 Immanuel Low's parallel research to Sula Benet 21 done independently, but it came to the same 22 conclusion. 23 I didn't know about Gerard de Nerval 24 writing in 1850 that there were references to 25 cannabis in the Song of Songs. 265 1 And I didn't know that there was even 2 research or indications of any of this. This 3 was all material that came as proof of the tree 4 of life that was brought forth as evidence and 5 documentation that showed me that there was a 6 reality, a greater reality that went beyond my 7 personal experience that was part of the 8 collective experience of human history. 9 964 Q All right. You've said a few times -- you've 10 talked about the liberation of the tree of life. 11 Do you mean legalization of cannabis use 12 generally? 13 A Yes. I think that cannabis should be legalized. 14 I don't think that human secularists should be 15 prevented from using cannabis. 16 965 Q Sorry, human what? 17 A Secularists. That's the non-religious people. 18 966 Q M'mm-hmm. 19 A Human secularists. And I think that all, you 20 know, adults should be free to choose any plant. 21 It's my belief that any law against any plant is 22 a law against nature and humanity's natural 23 indigenous right to the plants of the earth. 24 It's unnatural and uncalled for. 25 967 Q Right. But more specifically -- I just want to 266 1 understand what you mean -- when you refer to 2 the liberation of the tree of life it is this 3 legalization of cannabis generally to which you 4 refer? 5 A Yes. Over and above my own personal exemption 6 for religious use, if I was granted my religious 7 exemption by Health Canada, I would have 8 continued on the course of action that I am 9 taking that looks for the full legalization of 10 cannabis. 11 968 Q And do you see the recognition of your religious 12 freedom to use cannabis as being the point at 13 which liberation will take place? 14 A As much as I see or saw the legalization of 15 industrial hemp, the MMAR program, it is 16 definitely a step down that road. 17 969 Q Is it the final step? 18 A No, it's not the final step. The final step 19 would be legalization of cannabis. 20 970 Q Oh, I see. I think we're at cross-purposes, but 21 I think you've answered my question about 22 liberation in any event so ... 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: In that case I think we are done 24 with this. 25 MR. TOUSAW: Okay. 267 1 MS. SOKHANSANJ: What we can do is mark the DVD 2 again. 3 MR. TOUSAW: Sure, absolutely. 4 EXHIBIT 9: DVD entitled "August 2005 5 Pharmakeia" 6 MR. TOUSAW: It's 4:13. 7 MS. SOKHANSANJ: And I'm virtually finished. In 8 fact, I think what I am going to do is take a 9 short break while this is being marked. 10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:13 P.M.) 11 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 4:19 P.M.) 12 MS. SOKHANSANJ: 13 971 Q So we're back on the record after a break, and 14 did you discuss your evidence with anyone during 15 the break, Mr. Bennett? 16 A No, we did not. No, I did not. 17 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, Mr. Bennett, thank you for 18 your time today. Those are my questions. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 MR. TOUSAW: I have just a few. 21 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. TOUSAW: 22 972 Q I will take you to paragraph 22 of your 23 statutory declaration, and you were asked -- 24 A It's Exhibit A. 25 973 Q That's Ms. Kula's, yes. 268 1 You were asked about paragraph 22(O), and I 2 will just ask you is the (O) and all the other 3 letters part and parcel of the overall 4 paragraph number 22? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 974 Q And I will leave it at that. 7 You've been asked a number of questions 8 about the Church of the Universe. Is it your 9 evidence that the tenets of the Church of the 10 Universe make up the whole of your religious and 11 spiritual belief system? 12 A No. I'd say that the tenets that cannabis is 13 the tree of life and God is God I do share with 14 them. They have some beliefs about the wearing 15 of hats that I do not share. 16 975 Q And are there things that are part of your 17 religious belief system that aren't part of the 18 Church of the Universe system -- 19 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I think he has answered your 20 question, Mr. Tousaw. Well, I note, Mr. Tousaw, 21 he has answered your question. You can move on. 22 MR. TOUSAW: Well, that was my next question. 23 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, but you've already asked a 24 question, and he's answered it with his point 25 about hats. 269 1 MR. TOUSAW: You are entitled to -- 2 MS. SOKHANSANJ: You're leading him is essentially 3 where I'm going. 4 MR. TOUSAW: It's not a leading question. 5 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well ... 6 MR. TOUSAW: You're entitled to make an objection, 7 and we can argue it in court, but he's going to 8 answer the question. 9 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Well, I will maintain my objection, 10 and I guess we'll have to argue it in court. 11 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question. 12 MR. TOUSAW: I'd rather have it read back because I 13 don't want to repeat it and stray. 14 MS. SOKHANSANJ: Read back last question. 15 (COURT REPORTER READS BACK QUESTION 975) 16 A Yeah, I just -- I suspect there are, but I just 17 don't know. I'd have to interview all the 18 members of the Church of the Universe and have 19 them read through all my books and stuff. 20 I did prepare a large document on the 21 Church of the Universe website with another 22 brother in the Church of the Universe, Reverend 23 Damuzi, that goes over much of my historical 24 material, and it is part of the Church of the 25 Universe mandate and declaration, so that is, 270 1 you know, like an important document to the 2 Church of the Universe attesting to the 3 historicity of our religious beliefs. 4 So as far as, you know, whether all Church 5 of the Universe don't accept the virgin birth or 6 don't accept the resurrection of Jesus, I really 7 would have to -- yeah, I'd have to perform some 8 sort of questionnaire to -- to ask about those 9 things. I really don't know. 10 I would say that many people have been 11 drawn to the Church of the Universe as a result 12 of reading my articles and material. 13 MR. TOUSAW: 14 976 Q You were asked questions about your use of 15 cannabis prior to the epiphany that you describe 16 in your statutory declaration and affidavit -- 17 A M'mm-hmm. 18 977 Q -- and whether that use was, I think the word 19 used by counsel was recreational. I wonder what 20 you mean by "recreational." 21 A Well, I didn't have a defined 22 religious/spiritual view as regards to cannabis 23 being a sacrament or a history of regarding 24 cannabis or anything like that. I was using it 25 because I liked the way that it made me feel. 271 1 Whether that's under recreation or not, I don't 2 know. I suppose that's an argument. You know, 3 I don't know how to define recreation involved 4 in enjoying the effects of something. I took it 5 for pleasure. 6 And even in those times I would say if 7 somebody had come to me with the idea of it 8 being a religious sacrament and explained it to 9 me I might have looked at my own use in a 10 different way. 11 I think that there are many people that use 12 cannabis as a sort of spiritual tool and guide 13 that just haven't defined it that way yet 14 because they really aren't familiar with the 15 information and role that cannabis has played 16 through history, and when people find out about 17 that role, many of them go, hey, that fits how I 18 feel as well. 19 So yeah, I think it was just the reefer 20 madness propaganda, the lack of historical 21 documentation about cannabis's role prior to the 22 hippie era and jazz era, which is when most 23 people kind of think it all started, that just 24 made me unaware of it, but even in those times 25 probably the seed of my spiritual destiny 272 1 regarding cannabis was -- was just starting to 2 sprout. 3 978 Q In questions earlier today you were asked about 4 the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and I think you 5 described it as a hoax of sorts. I'm wondering 6 what you meant by that. 7 A Well, this is a subject that I discussed in 8 detail in all three of my books, Green Gold the 9 Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic & Religion, 10 Sex, Drugs, Violence and the Bible and Cannabis 11 and the Soma Solution. 12 Now, it's little known, but backed up by 13 historical writings in regards to this and 14 scientific studies in regards to this, that 15 potent cannabis extracts can throw one into a 16 state of catalepsy that resembles death where a 17 person's limbs stiffen up, their breathing 18 becomes almost non-noticeable, their heart rate 19 drops down to the most minimal amount of 20 beatings, and there's accounts of yogis in India 21 in the 19th century being interred in the ground 22 for a period of weeks to -- you know, 10 days to 23 weeks and then being dug up again and being 24 quite alive after being revived by their 25 attendees. 273 1 And in the Book of John, and this was an 2 another example of myself having a religious 3 experience with cannabis because this idea came 4 to me via an inspiration, that in the Book of 5 John Jesus is described as hanging on the cross, 6 and he says, I am thirsty, and a man comes to 7 him with some sponge on the end of a staff, and 8 he puts it to his mouth, he takes a drink, and 9 he says, it is done, and in that moment he dies. 10 Now, death on the cross was a slow and 11 painful death. It took place through 12 suffocation. Your arms are stretched out like 13 this. This pushes the ribs into the lungs and 14 prevents breathing properly, and so you slowly 15 suffocate as your arms become too weak to hold 16 up your body. 17 And this is what happened. All of a sudden 18 he just dies on the cross, and then in the Book 19 of John it describes after Jesus's death when 20 he's been put into the tomb, that his secret 21 servants, Nicodemus and another fellow, his 22 secret servants, come to Jesus with aloes and 23 other things, and they go into the tomb, and 24 Jesus is revived. 25 Now, the Jewish people didn't do things 274 1 like prepare bodies for burial with aloes and 2 things like that, so it was unusual that this 3 was even taking place, and it's very comparable 4 to the accounts I've read of 19th century yogis 5 being interred in the ground for a great period 6 of time. 7 This is also evidenced in the pre-Christian 8 Zoroastrian literature where devotees such as 9 King Vishtaspa and Arda Viraf are giving 10 preparation of mang, recognized as a Pahlavi 11 word used for the bhang, and these individuals 12 fell into a state of star and were unconscious 13 in a death-like state for a couple of days, and 14 then they would return from these experiences 15 with revelations of the afterlife. 16 In fact, the Christian concepts of heaven 17 and hell come directly via the revelations of 18 Arda Viraf, the Zoroastrian hero, and his 19 consumption of cannabis and his revelations that 20 he received while in the starred state, which is 21 an unconscious state resembling death to the 22 outsiders. 23 And then after the Christian period, the 24 Ismaili -- the Islamic group the Ismailis who 25 are thought to derive much of their tradition 275 1 from the gnostic tradition had an initiation of 2 their members. The Ismailis are also known as 3 the Hashashins, and the words "assassin" and 4 "hashish" come from the same root word. And 5 devotees were given a preparation of cannabis 6 allegedly, according to the myths around it, 7 from Marco Polo and other figures, went into a 8 death-like stupor, believe they awoke in 9 paradise, and then upon return from this 10 experience they believed that they had died and 11 gone to heaven, and this was the basis of their 12 initiation into the group, and it's likely best 13 based on this same tradition going back through 14 gnosticism into Christianity. 15 So my view is, is that Jesus had 16 arranged -- and this is a view put forth by 17 Dr. Hugh Schofield in The Passover Plot, as well 18 I found out later, as well as the authors of the 19 book The Holy Blood and Holy Grail have written 20 about this as well, and other authors as well. 21 A German researcher, I believe, Holger Kersten 22 has suggested cannabis as the item that was 23 received on the cross, and in the 19th century a 24 number of researchers wrote that the gall and 25 vinegar wine given to Jesus on the cross was a 276 1 preparation of Indian hemp. 2 So there's a wealth of evidence to do this, 3 and I think that is a much more realistic view 4 than the idea that a man would die, be dead for 5 three days and rise from the dead, and that's a 6 much more realistic view. And it is also the 7 pivotal point -- as I described, the cross is 8 the pillar of the Catholic Church, indeed 9 Jesus's death and resurrection on the cross is 10 the pivotal aspect of Catholicism. It is 11 through Jesus's resurrection that we are cleared 12 of sin, his death and sacrifice on the cross, 13 and the idea that this was false seems to me to 14 be likely why the Templars, the Knights Templar, 15 who became closely associated with the 16 Hashashins in the 12th century and were accused 17 of mocking the cross, did so, and that that is 18 one of the reasons why the Catholic Church has 19 had a centuries, millennia-long conflict with 20 the users of cannabis. 21 979 Q You were asked some questions earlier about 22 sharing cannabis, and I wonder in that context 23 what the word "share" means to you? 24 A Well, when I'm referring to sharing I'm 25 referring to the act of maybe smoking a joint 277 1 and passing that joint to another individual or 2 receiving that joint that has been passed to me 3 from another individual, and that's what I'm 4 referring to as sharing. 5 I haven't been giving cannabis and 6 exchanging cannabis like that, but I have been 7 sharing it in joints, in passing it around and 8 accepting cannabis in that way. 9 MR. TOUSAW: Those are my questions. 10 MS. SOKHANSANJ: I don't have any re-re-exam. 11 MR. TOUSAW: Thank you very much. 12 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:33 P.M.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 278 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 2 3 I, Marguerite Maseko, RCR, Official 4 Reporter in the Province of British Columbia, 5 Canada, BCSRA No. 488, do hereby certify: 6 That the proceedings were taken down by me 7 in shorthand at the time and place herein set 8 forth and thereafter transcribed, and the same 9 is a true and correct and complete transcript of 10 said proceedings to the best of my skill and 11 ability. 12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 13 subscribed my name and seal this 6th day of 14 June, 2010. 15 16 17 18 ______________________ 19 Marguerite Maseko, RCR 20 Official Reporter 21 22 23 24 25