The First Casualty in War is The Truth

The text of my speech at the Vancouver Art Gallery for the anniversary of September 11th, 2011.

Hello fellow truthers!

My name is David Malmo-Levine and I’ve been asked to speak to you today because of my reputation for having a low-bullshit threshold.

I am a cannabis activist – I help organize the cannabis farmer’s markets we have here at the Art Gallery twice a year. I defended myself on pot-dealing charges at the Supreme Court of Canada. I don’t believe the government’s lies about marijuana smoke causing cancer because the government has been unable to produce one person who has gotten cancer from smoking only cannabis. I don’t believe the government’s lies about pot smoke having no medicinal value because I have 100-year-old copies of the advertisements in the British Medical Journals for Grimaults cigarettes of Cannabis Indica. I don’t believe in punishing people for their intelligent preferences for cannabis over alcohol, tobacco, pills, caffeine and similar harder substances. Given how often the government has lied about marijuana, I’ve grown quite skeptical about the drug war in general. I don’t believe that police and jails are the best way to solve any medical problems. My skepticism regarding the government’s drug war rhetoric has caused me to be a skeptic when it comes to the government’s other global, infinite war – the terror war or the oil war or whatever you want to call it. So not only am I a pot activist, I’m a truther, too.

Some in the media use the term “truther” as if it was some sort of insult. I don’t see it as an insult – given that it appears that the alternative to being a truther is being a liar, a coward or a dupe. At least the truthers stand for something. If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything.

You know who is a truther? Michael Moore is a truther. Moore told reporters, “I’ve had a number of firefighters tell me over the years and since Fahrenheit 9/11 that they heard these explosions – that they believe there’s MUCH more to the story than we’ve been told. I don’t think the official investigations have told us the complete truth – they haven’t even told us half the truth.”

Hunter S. Thompson was another truther. He said in an interview that “… the disastrous crashes – I’m still not sure who did that – I think there’s allot more to it than we’ve been allowed to know … I’m very disturbed about the civil rights implications of this – I think everyone should be.”
 
Everyone on planet Earth has a duty to seek the truth, and everyone on planet Earth should be very wary of what governments say is the truth – more often than not governments lie. I also don’t mind being called a “conspiracy theorist”, given the alternative to being a conspiracy theorist is being a “coincidence theorist”.

You know what the coincidence theorists believe? I’ll tell ya what they believe: It’s just a coincidence that three steel framed skyscrapers melted into mostly dust as a result of kerosene and burning office equipment only on 9/11 and no other day. It’s just a coincidence that all the steel from all three collapsed buildings was removed and shipped to Asia before any examination of it could take place! It’s just a coincidence that thermite – a substance used to cut steel – was found in the dust. It’s just a coincidence that the most guarded airspace on planet earth was – on that day and that day alone – left defenseless while six military exercises distracted and confused the Air Force. It’s just a coincidence that FEMA was in NYC practicing how to respond to just such a terrorist attack on 9/11 – the day such attacks happened – and that similar anti-terrorist exercises occurred on the 7/7 bombings in London. It’s just a coincidence that Karen Silkwood crashed her car the night she was on her way to expose the dirty dealings of the nuclear industry. It’s just a coincidence that a magic bullet exited out Kennedy’s throat, changed trajectory several times and then accounted for Governor Connally’s wounds, going through bone and still coming out of two men’s bodies nearly pristine. It’s just a coincidence that the sinking of the USS Maine was blamed on a Spanish mine – and allowed the US to declare war on Spain in 1898 – when actually the explosion occurred on the inside of the ship.

There are so many coincidences that just happen to be convenient occurrences for those in power that you really have to be as stupid as a sack of hammers, as timid as a mouse, or as honest as a politician, to believe in those coincidences any longer.

So I ask you to join me in coming out of the closet as a truther – there are more and more of us coming out every day! There are now about 1,500 out of the closet Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. These brave professionals have put out a new film: 9/11 Explosive Evidence. It will soon be online. Everyone should watch this film and post it on your Facebook walls and send it to your parent’s email addresses. It is the strongest argument yet that 9/11 was an inside job.
 
Sophocles said that the truth is always the strongest argument, and nobody dares debate the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth. Nobody even attempts to argue that you can get symmetrical skyscraper collapse from asymmetrical skyscraper damage. The Popular Mechanics people don’t mention the symmetrical nature of the collapse in their “Debunking 9/11 Myths” book. They don’t mention missing jet engine holes, or the missing jet engines, in the Pentagon either.
 
The history of war is a history of deception. It has been said many times that “the first casualty in war is the truth”. Most wars begin with false-flag operations – where a country pretends to be attacked so they can claim to be defending themselves – or a “let it happen” operation – where a country knows that it is about to be attacked and they let it happen so they can then whip up public opinion into a war frenzy.
 
For example, in WW1 the Germans attempted to warn the US public with 50 newspaper advertisements that the British Cruise Liner Lusitania – which had hundreds of US passengers – was a legitimate military target, but the US State Department prevented all but one of the ads to run. Churchill called the ship “45,000 tons of live bait.” It’s sinking by Germany is seen by many as the major factor which led to the US entering WW1.
 
Or take WW2 for another example. After the NAZI’s got rid of their political opponents with a false-flag Reichstag fire, they then performed another false-flag operation to justify the invasion of Poland. They dressed up some prisoners in Polish uniforms, shot them and then claimed these dead pretend Polish soldiers were attacking a German radio station. Google “Operation Himmler” or “Operation Canned Goods” to learn more about that false flag operation.
 
Gore Vidal wrote about Pearl Harbor in his book The Last Empire, how the USA had broken all the Naval codes and had goaded Japan into striking first. If you don’t believe that Pearl Harbor was planned, ask yourself why none of the air-craft carriers – the weapons that won the battle of the Pacific – were in Pearl Harbor during the Japanese attack. Another lucky coincidence?
 
Or take the Vietnam War. The US attempts to paint the Vietnamese as the aggressor in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. The truth of the matter is that the US had been bombing South Vietnam – the area it claimed to be defending – since 1962. Google “Project Farm Gate” or look at the photos of fighter-bombers in the New York Times soft cover version of the Pentagon Papers or Google “bombing of South Vietnam” and “Chomsky” and learn how that – by 1961, the US puppet government in South Vietnam had already killed 80,000 people, who was really the aggressor in Vietnam?
 
Or Google “Operation Ajax” and learn about the coup in Iran in 1953. Google the video “A History of Oil” by Robert Newman or read “The Prize” by Daniel Yergin and learn how often oil is the main reason for many wars. Google “Operation North Woods” and learn about the planned false-flag operation to justify a US invasion of Cuba. Google the video “The Panama Deception” and learn how Bush 1 and Cheney used lies to justify their mass murder of 3000 Panamanians. Read the book “Killing Hope” by William Blum to fully understand how often the CIA organizes massacres that benefit corporate America. Check out the new Wikileak about Ambassador April Glaspie – no doubt acting on orders from Bush 1 and Cheney – giving Saddam Hussein the “Green Light” to invade Kuwait.
 
And even though Gaddafi is a murderous thug – up until he decided to stop accepting US dollars and instead insist on being paid in gold for his oil, he was America’s thug. The US Government hasn’t dropped 50,000 bombs on Libya because it cares for the Libyan people.
 
The US Government wants the oil and the gold to hand over to the oil companies and banks that finance the election campaigns of both the Democrats and the Republicans. If you already know all this, it’s your duty to inform other people about it. And if you don’t know all this stuff, you have a lot of Googling to do.
 
You all have a duty to fully educate yourselves, your families and your community about false-flags – not just to avoid being complicit in horrific war crimes, but also to be ready the next time some nuclear bomb is detonated or some bio-weapon is released and blamed on someone from an oil-rich nation. Unless we as citizens of planet Earth familiarize ourselves with false flags, the next one could be the one that removes our remaining rights away completely and results in us all being put into FEMA camps, like some say that fourth hijacked airplane – Flight 93 – was designed to do.
 
Some of you are deciding right now whether or not you should add the struggle for 9/11 truth to the rest of your daily struggles. When promoting this event on the Cannabis Culture .com website, CC editor Jeremiah Vandermeer and myself were attacked for attempting to deal with more than one issue at a time. “You gotta pick one infinite war and stick with it” our critics, in effect, argued. I expect that similar attacks will be levelled at anyone who attempts to circulate evidence of government war crimes and government false-flag operations. So I leave you with these words from Martin Luther King Jr., when he decided to speak out against the Vietnam War, from his speech “Beyond Vietnam”:
 
“The truth of these words is beyond doubt, but the mission to which they call us is a most difficult one. Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government’s policy, especially in time of war.

Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist thought within one’s own bosom and in the surrounding world. Moreover, when the issues at hand seem as perplexing as they often do in the case of this dreadful conflict, we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty; but we must move on. And some of us who have already begun to break the silence of the night have found that the calling to speak is often a vocation of agony, but we must speak. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. And we must rejoice as well, for surely this is the first time in our nation’s history that a significant number of its religious leaders have chosen to move beyond the prophesying of smooth patriotism to the high grounds of a firm dissent based upon the mandates of conscience and the reading of history. Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movements and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us.”

David Malmo-Levine

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    the only people who would argue against a transparent, unfettered independent investigation into the events of 911 are those with a vested interest in supressing the truth.

    frankly, to hope that albury would voluntarily disclose such things as his real name and qualifications, to add just the slightest credence to anything he says, is as likely as there will ever be credible proof beyond all reasonable doubt that bin laden was killed in may of 2011.

    ie; NONE

    there is irefutable evidence that the events of 911 did not happen as we are being told,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jazdG3-ZETM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iND-b8Q3jc

    but despite that, and despite not being asked, albury will continue to offer his unqualified, anonymous opinion, as if he is the final arbiter of truth, in relation to ANYTHING to do with 911. a self proclaimed expert..

    its so pathetic, if it wasnt for the fact that on the backs of the lies of that fateful day, hundreds of thousands of innocent men women and children have been killed, civil and constitutional rights have been shredded, and the world has been subjected to a never ending war of terror, it would be funny.

    This video puts to rest ALL of alburys arguments and shows exactly why 911 needs a proper investigation.
    Professor Daniele Ganser (Switzerland) – 10 Years After 9/11 The Official Account Does Not Add Up

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fUT7XgLiTY

  1484. Anonymous on

    debunk this assbury shilltroll

    http://www.show-the-house.com/id107.html

    why would the government need to lie like this?

    as youve been asked this question elsewhere, and have been unable to answer.. i think its best all round if you just STFU actually.

    … from here http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/911-facts/48/20647-why-you-can-not-believe-the-q911-conspiracy-theory-de-bunkersq.html

    The bottom line is that myth huggers are chickens. They cling to a few points, some of which are fairly understandable and potentially correct. But they don’t have proof to back up their claims in most cases, and in all cases these myth huggers can not in any way shape or form address the rest of the thousands and thousands of disturbing questions that still stand unanswered by the establishment after all of these years. So even if they actually answer a few questions and explain some things away, there are still so many questions and disturbing facts that their contribution to the discussion is worthless and changes nothing. They may take a few drops out of the bucket, but that bucket still holds quite a lot of water, to say the least.

    What the 9/11 truth community wants is direct answers to their questions. Myth huggers are not qualified to answer these questions but they are more than qualified to confuse people into thinking that the questions have been answered. They have not.

    Note to the myth huggers:

    I have no polite way to say this but after 10 years without real answers it has to be said I say this to the myth huggers shut the hell up already. Nobody as asking you a damn thing. The answers should be coming from the people who originally provided the myth and to the people towards whom the evidence points and sorry but those people for the most part are Americans and they were running our country on September 11th 2001. If they gave us answers that made sense or matched the evidence, nobody would be asking for your two cents and in reality, nobody is. SO STOP ANSWERING, WE DON’T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!

  1485. Anonymous on

    debunk this assbury shilltroll

    http://www.show-the-house.com/id107.html

    now why would the government need to lie like this do you think?

    done and dusted, no fuck off.

  1486. DML on

    What you said is true – corporations hire governments to convince populations to go to war and convince taxpayers to foot the bill while those corporations get rich. You have to look pretty hard to find one example of where this is not true – 99% of wars from the last 100 years are fought to enrich corporations. The fact you say it sarcastically as if it was ridiculous to contemplate it shows that you don’t pay attention to history.

    There’s a comic book online that’s totally meant for people such as yourself … people who hate to read but like looking at pictures:

    http://www.thenutgraph.com/addicted-to-war-serial/

    Something tells me that you will ignore even the comic book version of war profiteering history – as Upton Sinclair put it:

    “I used to say to our audiences: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”

    * I, Candidate for Governor: And How I Got Licked (1935), ISBN 0-520-08198-6; repr. University of California Press, 1994, p. 109.
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Upton_Sinclair

  1487. Albury Smith on

    The evil US gubmint created al Qaeda and then secretly bombed some hi-rises in coordination with a deadly suicide attack by them so that it could spend trillions of dollars on an intervention in Afghanistan, and the evil CIA could secretly get a cut out of a few billion dollar industry involving ~200,000 Afghan growers, warlords, etc. who’ve been producing opiates for decades, while the evil US itself pays incentives to the locals not to grow poppies? That’s even better than the one about the NYC real estate mogul who publicly admitted to insurance fraud but still collected a total of ~$4.68 billion from 12 different insurers, and is now spending more than twice that much on rebuilding his owned and leased properties, while still paying ~$10 million/month rent to the PANYNJ and not having any rental income for 10 years and counting.
    Jeezus, what would we do without the 9/11 “truth movement” to figure all of this stuff out for us?

  1488. DML on

    “Al Qaeda was indirectly aided by US intervention in Afghanistan during the Cold War.”

    And again aided Al Qaeda when the US decided to look the other way so they could sell heroin.

    “OK, number one, what happens is that the U.S. government has been
    instrumental in bringing drugs into this country – whether it was heroin,
    whether it was cocaine, and then the crack epidemic. … We have the best intelligence in the world. We could stop anything we want to stop but because of economic reasons, it’s not gonna stop.”
    GNN Interview: Cele Castillo, former DEA agent
    eric stewart
    Fri, 21 Dec 2001
    http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg82994.html

    “The CIA’s Operational Directorate – in other words, that’s the covert operation, paramilitary, dirty tricks corps, whatever you want – has, for forty years paid for significant amounts of its work through the sales of heroin and cocaine. It happened in Vietnam, it happens in Afghanistan, it happened in South America, it happened in the Iran-Contra-Affair.“

    – Professor Christopher Simpson, American University, Washington D.C.
    CRACK THE CIA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYOVQezWaCY

    “Bin Laden continues to use his own personal fortune to finance his jihad, but he also receives financing from well-wishers in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries; another source of revenue is the international heroin trade, in which Afghanistan is one of the key players.”
    http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html

    “Even Osama bin Laden may have his hands in the drug trade. According to a
    Russian report, Mr. bin Laden has bankrolled Chechen gunmen in Dagestan with
    funds generated from heroin trafficking. The importance of illegal drugs to the financing of terrorism raises an obvious question. If illegal drugs are the single largest source of funding for terrorism, can you hurt terrorism by legalizing drugs? “Probably,” John Thompson said. “In fact I think you could hurt it considerably.””
    Terrorists get cash from drug trade: Trafficking prime source
    of funds for many groups, Ottawa Citizen, September 14, 2001 By Dan Gardner
    http://www.cfdp.ca/terror.htm

    “By providing funds for (Bin Laden’s pal) Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a drug trafficker selected for support by Pakistani intelligence (the InterServices Intelligence Directorate, or ISI), the CIA helped propel Hekmatyar into becoming, for a while, the largest heroin trafficker in Afghanistan and perhaps the world.” – Drugs, Oil and War, Peter Dale Scott, 2003, p.27

    “…you’ve now taken the obvious fact that ousting the Taliban had the unintended consequence of being a boon to the heroin industry and invented a yarn about that.”

    If by “invented a yarn” you mean quote ex-DEA, ex-LAPD and University Professors and journalists, yeah, I invented a yarn. I find them more believable than you and whatever your fucking profession is – does “internet troll” have a health-care plan? Can you even call it a “profession”?

    Anyway, you picked the wrong website to come try and sell your “CIA is innocent of controlling the global drug trade” story. The moderators and writers at this website have read too many books that provide too much evidence to the contrary.

  1489. Albury Smith on

    Al Qaeda was indirectly aided by US intervention in Afghanistan during the Cold War.
    Just as you leaped from there to the unwarranted conclusion that the US “created al Qaeda,” you’ve now taken the obvious fact that ousting the Taliban had the unintended consequence of being a boon to the heroin industry and invented a yarn about that.

  1490. DML on

    “I’m still wondering what you think this aiding of the mujaheddin and others a quarter century ago has to do with the more recent attacks on the US.”

    The US support for the mujaheddin resulted in a bunch of trained fundamentalist “freedom fighters” that would predictably fight for the freedom from having their holy lands occupied by infidels – the US was investing in creating an enemy nasty enough to replace the communists for the sake of justifying over-bloated defense budgets. If Al Qaeda didn’t exist, the US would have to invent them … but they already did.

    Furthermore, the “drug money” that funds terrorism – that’s all supervised by the CIA – the biggest drug dealers on the planet. If you’re still ignorant about this fact and haven’t bothered to read “Whiteout” by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair or “Cocaine Politics” by Peter Dale Scott and Johnathan Marshall or “Dark Alliance” by Gary Webb, watch this 9 minute video – it’s a crash course in how the CIA use drug money to finance their secret dirty wars … all over the world:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYOVQezWaCY

    Finally, here’s a video for you regarding Bin Laden’s death and it’s historical meaning … and Operation Geronimo:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Geronimo_name_controversy

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6O6sM2Shok

  1491. Albury Smith on

    From one of your own links:
    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24198
    “Al Qaeda (THE BASE), bin Laden’s organisation, was established in 1987-88…” It’s rather self-contradictory, so please read all of your articles before linking to them.
    I don’t know why you went to so much effort to “prove” that US aid was given to those fighting the Soviets during the Cold War, since I’ve already agreed that it was.
    Once again, the US “created” opposition to the USSR in the ’80s; OBL and al-Zawahiri later created al Qaeda, which turned its attention to attacking the West in the ’90s. I’m still wondering what you think this aiding of the mujaheddin and others a quarter century ago has to do with the more recent attacks on the US. The US still has Muslim allies in Afghanistan, and they’re not flying planes into buildings or blowing up trains, buses, nightclubs, etc. all over the world.

  1492. DML on

    “.and both would have mentioned your absurd claim that the CIA “created al Qaeda” if there were a shred of truth to it.”

    Regardless of what they “would have” stated, do you have any counter-evidence to the evidence I presented? I’m quoting a bunch of sources that claim that those who trained Bin Laden got a majority of their funding from the CIA and ISI.

    “You’re cherry-picking a few quotes and citing sources that don’t even support your nonsense …”

    Here … I’m still waiting to hear the counter-evidence that would disprove all these assertions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_Saeed_Sheikh#Connection_with_9.2F11_hijackers

    CIA created al-Qaeda and gave $3 BILLION to Osama bin Laden

    The US government trained, armed, funded and supported Osama bin Laden and his followers in Afghanistan during the cold war. With a huge investment of $3,000,000,000 (three billion US dollars), the CIA effectively created and nurtured bin Laden’s al-Qaeda terrorist network using American tax-payers money. Afghanistan is one of the world’s poorest countries, where such an enormous sum sum of money would have had extraordinary value.

    BBC news article:
    “…Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight
    against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The
    Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars
    and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi
    Arabia and Pakistan. He received security
    training from the CIA itself.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm

    Forbes business information service article:
    “…[Osama bin Laden] received military and
    financial assistance from the intelligence services
    of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States.”

    http://www.forbes.com/charitable/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html

    ABC News article:
    “In the 1980s, bin Laden left his comfortable
    Saudi home for Afghanistan to participate in the
    Afghan jihad, or holy war, against the invading
    forces of the Soviet Union – a cause that,
    ironically, the United States funded, pouring
    $3 billion into the Afghan resistance via the CIA.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/binladen_profile.html

    http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228

    “BBC’s killer documentary called “The Power of Nightmares“. Top CIA officials openly admit, Al-qaeda is a total and complete fabrication, never having existed at any time. The Bush administration needed a reason that complied with the Laws so they could go after “the bad guy of their choice” namely laws that had been set in place to protect us from mobs and “criminal organizations” such as the Mafia. They paid Jamal al Fadl, hundreds of thousands of dollars to back the U.S. Government’s story of Al-qaeda, a “group” or criminal organization they could “legally” go after.”
    http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html

    “And I’ve also centered on the fact that these terrorist cells, namely al-Qaeda, are invariably linked to the CIA. They have been consistently supported by U.S. intelligence. What we are dealing with is a process, which consists in fabricating an enemy. The creation of Al-Qaeda is an intelligence operation used as a pretext to justify a war of conquest.”
    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2769

    “The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . .” — Pierre-Henri Bunel

    “Ana raicha Al Qaeda” is colloquial for “I’m going to the toilet”. A very common and widespread use of the word “Al-Qaeda” in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name comes from the Arabic verb “Qa’ada” which mean “to sit”, pertinently, on the “Toilet Bowl”. In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: “Al-Qaeda” also called the “Hamam Franji” or foreign toilet, and “Hamam Arabi” or “Arab toilet” which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called “Ma Qa’adia” or “Little Qaeda”.

    So, if you were forming a terrorist group, would you call yourself, “The Toilet”?

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php

    How the CIA created Osama bin Laden
    Wednesday, September 19, 2001
    BY NORM DIXON
    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24198

    http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?before_9/11=sovietafghanwar&timeline=complete_911_timeline’ defer=’defer

    “In February 1993, a group of Middle Easterners blew up the World Trade Center in New York City. Most of them were veterans of the Moujahedeen. Other veterans were carrying out assassinations in Cairo, bombings in Bombay, and bloody uprisings in the mountains of Kashmir.
    This, then, was the power and the glory of President Reagan’s “freedom fighters”, who had become yet more anti-American in recent years …”

    53. AFGHANISTAN 1979-1992 America’s Jihad

    http://killinghope.org/bblum6/afghan.htm

    “Always under the approving eye of Pakistan’s ISI officers, (Bin Laden) cultivated and guarded his good relations with the two main ethnic Afghan warlords: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar the Pushtun and Shah Massoud the Tajik.” – Unholy Wars – Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, John K. Cooley, 2000, p. 226

    “The U.S. government has been criticized for allowing Pakistan to channel a disproportionate amount of its funding to controversial Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,[36] who Pakistani officials believed was “their man”.[37] Hekmatyar has been criticized for killing other mujahideen and attacking civilian populations, including shelling Kabul with American-supplied weapons, causing 2,000 casualties. Hekmatyar was said to be friendly with Osama bin Laden, founder of al-Qaeda, who was running an operation for assisting “Afghan Arab” volunteers fighting in Afghanistan, called Maktab al-Khadamat. Alarmed by his behavior, Pakistan leader General Zia warned Hekmatyar, “It was Pakistan that made him an Afghan leader and it is Pakistan who can equally destroy him if he continues to misbehave.”[38]

    In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a Frankenstein.”[39]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone#Criticism

    … if you’ve read as much as you have claimed to read you’ll be able to disprove all that stuff no problem.

    Right?

  1493. Albury Smith on

    and both would have mentioned your absurd claim that the CIA “created al Qaeda” if there were a shred of truth to it. The Wright book clearly explains how al Qaeda evolved during the last half of the 20th Century, and Richard Clarke presents a clear picture of GeeDubya and Co.’s ignorance of the threat we faced in 2001. Both deal with any possible benefit al Qaeda may have gotten out of US policies during the Cold War, and with the al Qaeda influence in Bosnia, Chechnya, and other parts of the world.
    You’re cherry-picking a few quotes and citing sources that don’t even support your nonsense, and I suspect that it goes downhill from there. Is your next “theory” that the 9/11 hijackers and planes were faked, or just that the US attacked itself for no plausible reason, based on just as much evidence as you have for your controlled demolition crap? No one with anything sensible to add to this discussion would deny the existence of the Islamic terrorists who attacked the US on 9/11.

  1494. DML on

    … to prove that the US had little to do with the creation of Al Qaeda!

    Clarke’s book doesn’t deal with it at all … and Wright’s book:

    “Compared with the authors Peter L. Bergen (“Holy War: Inside the Secret World of Osama bin Laden”) and Jonathan Randal (“Osama: the Making of a Terrorist”), Mr. Wright spends less time on the crucial role that the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan played in shaping the jihadist cause.”

    No wonder you are so confused about the science of 9/11 – your research skills suck ass!

    Let me quote from books that actually deals with the subject matter:

    “By providing funds for Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a drug trafficker selected for support by Pakistani intelligence (the InterServices Intelligence Directorate, or ISI), the CIA helped propel Hekmatyar into becoming, for a while, the largest heroin trafficker in Afghanistan and perhaps the world.” – Drugs, Oil and War, Peter Dale Scott, 2003, p.27

    “Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Pashto: ?????? ??????? Persian: ?????? ???????) (born 1947) is an Afghan Mujahideen leader who is the founder and leader of the Hezb-e Islami political party and paramilitary group.” “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbuddin_Hekmatyar”

    “Always under the approving eye of Pakistan’s ISI officers, (Bin Laden) cultivated and guarded his good relations with the two main ethnic Afghan warlords: Gulbuddin Hekmatyar the Pushtun and Shah Massoud the Tajik.” – Unholy Wars – Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, John K. Cooley, 2000, p. 226

    “The U.S. government has been criticized for allowing Pakistan to channel a disproportionate amount of its funding to controversial Afghan resistance leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar,[36] who Pakistani officials believed was “their man”.[37] Hekmatyar has been criticized for killing other mujahideen and attacking civilian populations, including shelling Kabul with American-supplied weapons, causing 2,000 casualties. Hekmatyar was said to be friendly with Osama bin Laden, founder of al-Qaeda, who was running an operation for assisting “Afghan Arab” volunteers fighting in Afghanistan, called Maktab al-Khadamat. Alarmed by his behavior, Pakistan leader General Zia warned Hekmatyar, “It was Pakistan that made him an Afghan leader and it is Pakistan who can equally destroy him if he continues to misbehave.”[38]

    In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, “You are creating a Frankenstein.”[39]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone#Criticism

  1495. Albury is pure douche on

    Fuck Albury Smith

    Albury Smith is merely a paid whore who spends all of his time pushing the Official Fairy Tale. He’s an expert at straw man arguments and pushing fallacies and half truths.
    I’ve crossed paths with this douchebag many times over the years and his argument remains as weak now as it did 5 years ago.
    Albury you vile twat.
    Run back to your National Post cesspool and tell Jonathan Kay to eat an uncircumsized cack.

  1496. Fuck Albury Smith on

    Albury Smith is merely a paid whore who spends all of his time pushing the Official Fairy Tale.
    I’ve crossed paths with this douchebag many times over the years and his argument remains as weak now as it did 5 years ago.
    Albury you vile twat.
    Run back to your National Post cesspool and tell Jonathan Kay to eat an uncircumsized cack.

  1497. Albury Smith on

    The Looming Tower – Lawrence Wright

    Against All Enemies – Richard Clarke

    They don’t glom onto half-truths and spin lies around them. US intelligence did not “create al Qaeda,” and it took GeeDubya & Co. a deadly suicide attack on their watch to wake up to reality. If the evil US gubmint had just been looking for an excuse to attack OBL, the bombing of the Murrah Building and crash of TWA 800 could easily have been pinned on them, and their own suicide bombings of 2 US embassies, followed by the suicide bombing of the USS Cole actually should have gotten US boots on the ground in Afghanistan. Invading Iraq was the worst strategic blunder in US history, but it doesn’t change the fact that 9/11 was an(other) al Qaeda operation.

  1498. DML on

    … which is why you don’t bother to source anything to back up what you say about the CIA. I can see why nobody likes you.

  1499. Albury Smith on

    instead of simply enlightening me to the fact that the US is so beloved that it must create its own enemies, why not spread this knowledge to the world’s governments and media? I know of none who’ve yet realized that the CIA “created al Qaeda,” instead of simply aiding Afghan’s mujaheddin during the Cold War, and many have intelligence agencies that deal strictly with that one threat, since they’ve had their own citizens murdered too.
    You’ve not only outsmarted the entire US government and all of its counterparts worldwide, but also the overwhelming majority of ASCE members, so you’re not just an expert on political science and international affairs, but also a gifted structural engineer, simply by Googling for truther nut web sites. With a little more searching, you could also prove that all of the eyewitnesses were lying, and that the 9/11 hijackers and planes were faked. Be sure to send hefty donations to Alex Jones, Box Boy, the Loose Change punks, William Rodriguez, and all of your other 9/11 “researchers”; they depend on deep thinkers just like you.

  1500. DML on

    “The CIA must’ve fooled all of the world’s media, and every one of its governments too, but they weren’t smart enough to fool you.”

    Yeah … me and 22,200 others:

    “Al qaeda was created by the cia”
    Google Search:
    About 22,200 results (0.26 seconds)

    You seem to be oblivious to the fact that all I’m doing is quoting other researchers. The corporate press are out to lunch on most issues – which is why people are beginning to ignore them completely and look to the alternative press.

    You need to start to broaden your horizons when it comes to gathering opinions on the CIA. Limiting yourself to Fox News and USA Today will only keep you in your ignorant bubble. I would suggest beginning with the book “Killing Hope” by William Blum:

    “In February 1993, a group of Middle Easterners blew up the World Trade Center in New York City. Most of them were veterans of the Moujahedeen. Other veterans were carrying out assassinations in Cairo, bombings in Bombay, and bloody uprisings in the mountains of Kashmir.
    This, then, was the power and the glory of President Reagan’s “freedom fighters”, who had become yet more anti-American in recent years …”

    53. AFGHANISTAN 1979-1992 America’s Jihad

    http://killinghope.org/bblum6/afghan.htm

    http://killinghope.org/

  1501. Albury Smith on

    must’ve fooled all of the world’s media, and every one of its governments too, but they weren’t smart enough to fool you. Al Qaeda also means “The Base” in Arabic, and your childish and simple-minded argument could just as easily apply to thousands of terms in any language that have multiple meanings. You could also find equally credible Internet sources to your “polidics.com” and other crap that prove that the moon’s a UFO with crop circles on it.
    9/11 was another suicide attack by a group of Islamic fundamentalists that was formed in the late 80s, and has a long track record of atrocities like the 2 US embassy suicide bombings, the suicide bombing of the USS Cole, and bombings of innocent civilians in the UK, Spain, Indonesia, and numerous other locations worldwide. Hijacking US planes in 2001 was just not that tough to do, and steering them in perfect weather conditions was pretty simple for men with FAA commercial pilot certificates, as Atta, al-Shehhi, Hanjour, and Jarrah all had. Since they never sought work as pilots, they had a rather unusual hobby.

  1502. DML on

    “reading your own links instead of cherry-picking quotes and then misrepresenting them. Al Qaeda was not “created by the US,” regardless of any incidental aid they may have received when the US backed the Afghan mujaheddin during the Cold War.”

    “BBC’s killer documentary called “The Power of Nightmares“. Top CIA officials openly admit, Al-qaeda is a total and complete fabrication, never having existed at any time. The Bush administration needed a reason that complied with the Laws so they could go after “the bad guy of their choice” namely laws that had been set in place to protect us from mobs and “criminal organizations” such as the Mafia. They paid Jamal al Fadl, hundreds of thousands of dollars to back the U.S. Government’s story of Al-qaeda, a “group” or criminal organization they could “legally” go after.”
    http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html

    “And I’ve also centered on the fact that these terrorist cells, namely al-Qaeda, are invariably linked to the CIA. They have been consistently supported by U.S. intelligence. What we are dealing with is a process, which consists in fabricating an enemy. The creation of Al-Qaeda is an intelligence operation used as a pretext to justify a war of conquest.”
    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2769

    “The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive the TV watcher to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US . . .” — Pierre-Henri Bunel

    “Ana raicha Al Qaeda” is colloquial for “I’m going to the toilet”. A very common and widespread use of the word “Al-Qaeda” in different Arab countries in the public language is for the toilet bowl. This name comes from the Arabic verb “Qa’ada” which mean “to sit”, pertinently, on the “Toilet Bowl”. In most Arabs homes there are two kinds of toilets: “Al-Qaeda” also called the “Hamam Franji” or foreign toilet, and “Hamam Arabi” or “Arab toilet” which is a hole in the ground. Lest we forget it, the potty used by small children is called “Ma Qa’adia” or “Little Qaeda”.

    So, if you were forming a terrorist group, would you call yourself, “The Toilet”?

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php

    How the CIA created Osama bin Laden
    Wednesday, September 19, 2001
    BY NORM DIXON
    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24198

    http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?before_9/11=sovietafghanwar&timeline=complete_911_timeline’ defer=’defer

  1503. Albury Smith on

    to promote his drivel on here?

  1504. Albury Smith on

    reading your own links instead of cherry-picking quotes and then misrepresenting them. Al Qaeda was not “created by the US,” regardless of any incidental aid they may have received when the US backed the Afghan mujaheddin during the Cold War. It was primarily created from bin Laden’s group and the EIJ, both of which have always had a strong hatred for the non-Muslim world and democratic Western culture. The US did not “create” the group that assassinated Anwar Sadat either.

  1505. DML on

    … or are you a volunteer douchnozzle with a lot of time on his hands?

  1506. DML on

    “…instead of inventing your own facts about al Qaeda.”

    I didn’t “invent” anything … I just quoted major media sources on the subject.

    “OBL did not share your opinion that he and the US were friendly:”

    Where do you see me writing the word “friendly”. Is this what you do … make shit up to argue against. Do you do this a lot? Do you argue with yourself in your own room late at night and then project the losing side onto other people to make it seem more real?

    I said Al Qaeda was created by the US – I didn’t say they were friendly. There’s a difference. Here … learn about it – it’s fucking common knowledge in non-sycophantic-to-Cheney circles:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

  1507. Albury Smith on

    do not seem to have impressed the ASCE, AIA, RIBA, or any other legitimate professional organization, as a search for their crap on any of those web sites will soon confirm. You’ll find plenty of articles and papers supportive of the NIST recommendations, but nothing on Box Boy’s “theories.”
    Guess their memberships aren’t as bright as you are, huh?

  1508. Albury Smith on

    that you have no idea how the WTC towers were constructed. In addition to the fact that exploding the perimeter columns secretly would have been impossible, just hiding explosives on them would also have been an impossibility:
    http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wtc/select/clifton/images/image008.gif
    What makes your “theory” even more idiotic is the fact that the collapse videos and prior photos and videos clearly indicate what happened to the perimeter columns at and before the onset of both collapses, as do eyewitness accounts:
    http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/accountsoftowerstructuralinstabilityande
    Your imaginary, redundant, flash- and bang-free, fireproof and plane-proof explosives did not cause the inward bowing of the outer columns seen on the north and east sides of the South Tower, or on the south side of the North Tower:
    http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/ST1.jpg
    http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/WTC1BowingNIST.jpg
    Please note that PAPD security worked 24/7, not just during the day, and that many international financial services companies do too.

  1509. Albury Smith on

    may have benefited indirectly from US aid to the mujaheddin during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, but were not direct recipients of any of it. I’d suggest reading “The Looming Tower,” by Lawrence Wright instead of inventing your own facts about al Qaeda. Richard Clarke also makes it very clear in “Against All Enemies” how little the US knew about OBL and al Qaeda until the 2 embassy bombings in 1998.
    OBL did not share your opinion that he and the US were friendly:

    http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen2.htm

  1510. DML on

    “Even Hunter knew 9/11 came from Muslim hijackers.”

    “Hunter S. Thompson was another truther. He said in an interview that “… the disastrous crashes – I’m still not sure who did that – I think there’s allot more to it than we’ve been allowed to know …”

    http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/node/28471

    “There are more facts supporting 9/11 came from dope money than from conspiracy.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_Saeed_Sheikh#Connection_with_9.2F11_hijackers

    CIA created al-Qaeda and gave $3 BILLION to Osama bin Laden

    The US government trained, armed, funded and supported Osama bin Laden and his followers in Afghanistan during the cold war. With a huge investment of $3,000,000,000 (three billion US dollars), the CIA effectively created and nurtured bin Laden’s al-Qaeda terrorist network using American tax-payers money. Afghanistan is one of the world’s poorest countries, where such an enormous sum sum of money would have had extraordinary value.

    BBC news article:
    “…Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight
    against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The
    Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars
    and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi
    Arabia and Pakistan. He received security
    training from the CIA itself.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm

    Forbes business information service article:
    “…[Osama bin Laden] received military and
    financial assistance from the intelligence services
    of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States.”

    http://www.forbes.com/charitable/2001/09/14/0914whoisobl.html

    ABC News article:
    “In the 1980s, bin Laden left his comfortable
    Saudi home for Afghanistan to participate in the
    Afghan jihad, or holy war, against the invading
    forces of the Soviet Union – a cause that,
    ironically, the United States funded, pouring
    $3 billion into the Afghan resistance via the CIA.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/binladen_profile.html

    http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228

  1511. Son of Sam Walton on

    If a conspiracy occurred for 9/11, then we need to admit the entire block in NYC where the towers were standing on had their electricity shut off. When you take a metal rod (airplane) and jam it into a metal bar (WTC) and then quickly jam it out (the plane crashing and then moving backwards due to impact), you get metal being eaten away. And if we can prove that the WTC had any metal in it and that metal touched electric cables and that metal touched other pieces of metal and that metal touched concrete, then we know it wasn’t a conspiracy. When you place a 3,000 degree bar on the concrete, you get cracks in the concrete. For anyone who’s done welding, you will know your Stick Rod will explain the collapse of the towers. NYC’s electricity had to be 100% turned off at that time for the buildings to not collapse. It was drug money which sponsored the hijackers. If drug money from terrorists cannot explain 9/11 (which doesn’t mean we didn’t have some evil drug money addicted officials help), then we know rational logic will find it improvable for drug money to finance all the deaths in the Mexican Cartel Wars. What happens when you have ‘independent’ thinkers who’ve never experienced the mill and industrial work world up close, who’ve never experienced war and third world nations outside the cruse ship and resorts . . . we get people filled with opinions and not science based facts. In Hunter S. Thompson’s late 80’s Generation of Swine he said the year 2000 or early 21st Century would be the year of the Muslim. Even Hunter knew 9/11 came from Muslim hijackers. Those who truly know the way Hunter works knows that if Hunter didn’t die early on during the War on Terror, he would have scrapped his earlier writings about 9/11 from his data on Mexico, Guinea-Bissau etc. There are more facts supporting 9/11 came from dope money than from conspiracy. Advertising conspiracy is nothing less than ‘keep drugs illegal’ approach when everyone and their brother has seen up close the power of drug money on the streets, in War, in positions of power etc. I wonder if any of these ‘9/11 Truther’ have ever welded metal to metal together with their own hands or have ever seen destroyed villages burned down with drug money bought gasoline and where the villagers where hacked or shot to death by drug money bought guns, bullets and machetes? If the 9/11 Truthers aren’t going to admit all of NYC was without electricity on that morning g (which would have retarded the collapse), then they are 100% in favor of drug prohibition since we all know it was drug money which financed 9/11 . . . at least 50% and nothing more than 80% and such statistics can be found via travel, history, climate, geography and economics of the world and by region.

  1512. Albury Smith on

    but the US doesn’t incarcerate people just for being ignorant, so the 9/11 “truth movement” has nothing to worry about.

  1513. Guitarod on

    You are not suggesting that our gov’ts would lie to us are you. All for the sake of right wing religious ideology. Lie to me while collecting my tax money.
    Govt’s don’t enter wars to lose. In this case it’s win at all costs. Too many jobs at stake.
    Let’s all pray before a lot us meet in prison.

  1514. Guitarod on

    You are not suggesting that our gov’ts would lie to us are you. All for the sake of right wing religious ideology. Lie to me while collecting my tax money.
    Govt’s don’t enter wars to lose. In this case it’s win at all costs. Too many jobs at stake.
    Let’s all pray before a lot us meet in prison.

  1515. Guitarod on

    You are not suggesting that our gov’ts would lie to us are you. All for the sake of right wing religious ideology. Lie to me while collecting my tax money.
    Govt’s don’t enter wars to lose. In this case it’s win at all costs. Too many jobs at stake.
    Let’s all pray before a lot us meet in prison.

  1516. Albury Smith on

    Black smoke is an indicator of what’s burning, not the temperature, and these fires were not “cold”:

    http://www.debunking911.com/Fire.jpg

    nor were these:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlld3KqwE0k

    or this one:

    http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/BlackSmoke1.jpg

    The tower fires were not going to self extinguish in an hour or so, and they very quickly heated and weakened the lightweight bar joists supporting the floor slabs. 236 of the 283 columns in each building were in plain sight, so it takes braindead stupidity to believe that explosives were secretly planted and detonated on them.
    If all of this alleged thermite, nanothermite, or whatever, was found, what did it DO? Not one column was found in the WTC debris with a melted or explosively cut end on it, or Steven Jones wouldn’t have to try to pawn off photos of torch cut columns as “evidence.”

    Here’s more on those “cold” fires:

    http://www.911myths.com/html/black_smoke.html

    Hi-rises with multi-story holes the size of 767s in their sides are not oxygen starved, except in 9/11 “truth movement” fantasies.

  1517. DML on

    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm

    Thanks for the link. It’s proof that – despite the towers being bombed in 1993 – NIST assumed the government’s version of events were accurate and worked backwards rather than test for explosives. Particularly telling was this passage:

    “Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.”

    They could only come to this conclusion if they BOTH refused to look for UNREACTED, yet-to-be-burned thermite/thermate/nanothermite AND dismissed the evidence brought to the TWO peer reviewed journals of unreacted nano/thermite. You gave your reasons why one journal should be ignored but ignored my request for reasons why both should be ignored. Again … why should we ignore this journal:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/

    Furthermore, here are pictures of towering infernos that burned for hours and hours and did not collapse:

    http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/madrid_towering_inferno.htm

    http://howthehellshouldiknow-wallyworld.blogspot.com/2010/11/no-steel-melting-or-building-collapse.html

    So it doesn’t matter if the WTC fires were not hosed down … it doesn’t matter if the fire proofing was knocked off … the fact of the matter is they were cold fires with lots of black smoke and not much flame, and they only burned for an hour or two. They had some help – everyone who looked into it without blinders on knows it.

  1518. Albury Smith on

    in the WTC debris was not just noticed by the 9/11 “truth movement,” but also by the thousands of people who were actually there during the ~8 months of cleanup.
    To answer your incredibly stupid question, please read item #13 here:

    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm

    If counting past single digits is problematic for you, item #13 states:

    [Question]: “Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?”

    [Answer]: “NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

    NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

    Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.”

    Since you’re the inquisitive sort, and no temperatures hot enough to melt steel were recorded in the WTC debris fires, did you ever wonder why no one in your 9/11 “truth movement” accounts ever reported molten lead or aluminum? Both were in abundance in all 3 collapsed WTC hi-rises.

  1519. DML on

    Have you ever tried to debate him in public? In an official way? Can you cut and paste the correspondence if the answer is yes? You seem to have devoted much of the last few years to this … you could rent a hall … you could both be on Democracy now … I would love to see the copy of your correspondence with him, as all I see is you debating people in comment sections of websites that don’t involve actual professionals.

  1520. DML on

    Where in the official reports does it deal with this? Where in the official reports does it deal with the molten steel? Or did you just make that all up yourself because the official investigation didn’t bother to address it?

  1521. Albury Smith on

    Ask Box Boy any of the questions I posted here, and see what happens. He evades them, spews the same discredited BS over again, and then declares victory. Good luck trying to get an explanation for his “6.5 seconds” that WTC 7’s exterior collapse allegedly took. It actually fell in ~8-1/2 seconds, and only a veteran liar like him would claim to have seen the bottom well enough to determine it to the nearest 1/10 second.
    He does great when surrounded by truther nuts at staged events, but is ignored by most sane and knowledgeable people. Search him on the AIA or ASCE web sites and let me know what you come up with. What an a-hole.

  1522. Albury Smith on

    of what they were “reminded” of would be a nice touch. I’d also like to see how painting MICs on steel columns works; wouldn’t you?
    What utter lunacy…

  1523. Albury Smith on

    is of the NE corner of the South Tower, right where the bulk of the fuselage of UA 175 wound up, and in a financial services company’s leased space, where tons of UPS batteries were located. The collapse began later when the SE corner buckled, and the top initially tilted away from where your alleged nanothermite was “at work,” presumably on one of the 118 columns on the north and east sides of the tower. Nanothermite is also a very high explosive, not an incendiary, but if something was gradually melting that one column, it would have to have been held in place by a bulky contraption. Considering that 3/4″ of directly-applied lightweight gypsum plaster was all that separated the occupants from the bare steel:
    http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wtc/select/clifton/images/image008.gif
    the building would have to have been filled with blind people in order to have done it secretly. Perimeter columns that are blown up or severed do not gradually bow inward for a half hour or more, either, and that’s what was happening on the east and part of the north face.
    Your “theory” is a non-starter, to put in nicely.

  1524. DML on

    I would love to see that.

  1525. DML on

    “The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.”

    “The small size of the iron oxide parti-
    cles qualifies the material to be characterized as nano-
    thermite or super-thermite.”

    http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

    What you’re doing is focusing on a quote – taken out of context – from the middle of the paper, that has them commenting on the effects observed, not the material itself. When they speak about the material in the summary and the conclusion it’s far more certain, as the quotes above indicate.

    But you know what you’re doing, which is why you don’t provide links or context because people might read the summary or conclusion and see what you’re up to.

    If karma exists, you’re going to be hit by a bus fairly soon.

  1526. Albury Smith on

    did not lease WTC 7; he built it in 1987 and owned it. Property owners do not give orders to fire departments, and “THEY,” the FDNY, “made that decision…,” which was to set up a safety perimeter because the building was becoming increasingly unstable as a result of the fires, and there was no standpipe pressure because the North Tower collapse had severed the 20″ water line feeding WTC 7 and other buildings nearby. If you think he publicly admitted to blowing it up, why did 12 different insurance companies pay him a total of $4.68 BILLION to defray some of his 9/11 losses?
    The framing plan and location of the initial failure point make it very obvious why Wtc 7 collapsed fairly symmetrically, and there was no measurable resistance from t=1.75 to t=4 seconds to the ~150,000 tons that were falling.
    The idea that 83 columns weighing up to 730# per lineal foot even before being boxed in with additional steel plates were all instantly and secretly severed in multiple places with explosives, leaving no evidence on their ends, is beyond absurd.
    As for the Windsor Tower, the poured concrete core prevented a total collapse, and the steel-framed portion that was exposed to the fires did what steel always does in those conditions-it was fubar. One Meridian Plaza nearly collapsed, and was not hit by a plane, had sprinklers and firefighters, was entirely moment connected, and had no spans greater than 30′. By comparison, the interior connections in WTC 7 were gravity, not moment, and the spans near column 79 were ~45′ for the key 44/79 girder, and ~52′ for the asymmetrically-loaded beams connected to it on the east side.
    Apples and oranges.

  1527. David762 on

    “The Madrid hi-rise had a poured-in-place, steel-reinforced concrete core, which is all that kept the entire structure from collapsing. The steel-framed portion exposed to fire was very quickly fubar.”

    Wrong. You are implying that the building was demolished subsequent to the damage caused by the fire, which is incorrect. The fire started in an upper floor, became nearly unmanageable by firefighters, and the top 8 floors of the building was damaged to the point of exposing steel beams, after burning for 28 hours. The building was repaired, not demolished.

    “WTC 7’s framing plan makes it obvious why it collapsed inward, since the closely-spaced moment-connected perimeter columns could not have gone any other way. No slag at all would be anywhere near an end that was explosively cut (duh), and incendiaries leave a yellowish mess that a blind man would have seen.”

    First of all, you have not explained the symmetrical fall of WTC-7 at very nearly the speed of gravity in a vacuum due (your explanation) to a few scattered fires fueled by furniture / carpeting / curtains / office paperwork / etcetera, rather than controlled demolition. NYFD sources stated that the fires in WTC-7 were relatively minor and easily contained, which they were prepared to do, before L. Silverstein gave the order to ‘pull it’.

    Building demolitions often include pre-cutting steel beams in a stretched ‘Z’ shape pattern in such a manner that the explosive charges used only need to be powerful enough to push the beam segments apart rather than using shaped charges. I never claimed that WTC-7 was deconstructed in the exact same fashion as WTC-1 and WTC-2, or that thermate was used on WTC-7. The massive and extremely hot molten metal in the sub-basements of WTC-1 and WTC-2 that were picked up by SPOT satellite thermography were far in excess on fully oxygenated jet fuel, explainable only by the extensive use of thermate. Also, the sulfur in the thermate is almost entirely consumed / burned to form aluminum and iron sulfates, not blown on the wind.

    Only three steel-framed office buildings have ever symmetrically collapsed into their own footprints ‘due to fires’ on a few floors. Only two of them were struck by modern commercial aircraft. And all three happened on 9/11/2001 on properties at the World Trade Center, which just happened to have been put under a 99 year lease a mere 6 weeks earlier. Your ‘explanations’ on their face are not credible. The data supports only one rational conclusion — controlled demolition, and that makes the official government report the biggest and least credible conspiracy theory.

  1528. Albury Smith on

    “Active Thermitic…” malarkey unless you’ve read it. Their conclusion was that rust, aluminum, silicon, sulfur, etc. “reminded” them of nanothermite, although they provided no exemplars of anything for comparison.
    Building fires and collapses both make “rather loud noises,” but the sounds of demolition explosives carry for miles. In real controlled demolitions, they also occur right before the collapse, not randomly for hours, as BLEVEs, flashovers, backdrafts, exploding transformers and tanks, partial floor collapses, debris falling through elevator shafts, etc. do in office fires.
    The next time you quote mine FDNY and other first responders for the word “explosion,” you might want to consider the fact that practically none of them are in your “truth movement.”

  1529. DML on

    … so I know what the fuck you’re referring to.

    “Real scientists provide exemplars for what something “reminds” them of, and present plausible hypotheses.”

    Like that. Link, please, to the article in which someone says the word “reminds”.

    “A fragmentation grenade contains ~8 oz. of high explosives, and can be heard more than 10 miles away.”

    Apparently the destruction of WTC 1, 2 and 7 were all accompanied by rather loud noises.

  1530. Albury Smith on

    Here’s a typical WTC 7 core column being cut:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c2o8k4n9CY

    Please note that it took a large band saw, loads of water, and about 7-1/2 minutes to cut through it in ideal conditions, and that the W14 X 730 (730 pounds per lineal foot) columns in WTC 7 had massive steel plates welded continuously between their flanges in the lower levels of the building, most likely at least doubling their weight per foot at and below the 13th floor level. They were not accessible without demolishing the walls or column enclosures around them, and were in a building with nearly full occupancy and ’round the clock operations and security.
    If simply painting “nanothermite” on steel quietly and instantly does what big band saws and a steady stream of water do in 7-1/2 minutes, I think it should be sold in hardware stores in brush-top cans, don’t you? Hack saws, torches, shears, and other old-fashioned ways to cut steel will soon become obsolete. We could even make holes with the stuff and do away with drills. Since Box Boy’s “engineers” aren’t conducting any WTC collapse investigations, I’m wondering why they don’t develop and market this new discovery.

  1531. Albury Smith on

    provide exemplars for what something “reminds” them of, and present plausible hypotheses. If painting explosives on steel columns is a method of cutting them, why haven’t they demonstrated that new phenomenon?
    Harrit has also claimed that at least “a hundred tons” of conventional high explosives like RDX were also secretly planted in the WTC:
    http://ct911truth.org/911_movies/niels_harrit_interview_rt_i.html
    That’s enough to fill 4 tri-axle truck beds. A fragmentation grenade contains ~8 oz. of high explosives, and can be heard more than 10 miles away.
    Earth to truther nuts? Hello?

  1532. DML on

    “…and then left no evidence in the debris.”

    How can you possibly argue that there was no evidence when NIST admitted to not looking for such evidence and TWO peer reviewed journals displayed evidence of nanothermite?

    “Lotsa luck doing in a split second what a big band saw and loads of water take ~7-1/2 minutes to do in a shop.”

    Obviously they cut the building first and blew it up afterward.

  1533. DML on

    “Serious scientists don’t really care what rust, sulfur, aluminum, silicon, etc. “remind” someone of, and painting explosives on columns to cut them is an absurdity.”

    Here’s some pictures of the thermite. Please show me the link that proves these are not photos of unreacted thermite:

    http://investigate911.org/

    “Harrit: You cannot fudge this kind of science. We have found it: unreacted thermite.”
    http://www.bigeye.com/nanothermite.htm

    These videos also contradict your opinion:

    http://911debunkers.blogspot.com/2009/04/nanothermite-demolishes-911-conspiracy.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YaFGSPErKU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_3o

    The WTC was bombed in 1993. It was a crime that the official investigators didn’t bother to look for evidence of explosives. Real scientists don’t come to their conclusions at the beginning and work backwards from them.

  1534. DML on

    “especially those in Zurich (2), London, and Copenhagen, just look for opportunities to hand out hundreds of millions, especially to guys who publicly admit to blowing up their properties,…”

    Perhaps they found the government more persuasive (or intimidating) than the truthers at the time, especially when it’s the same government that killed 3000 Americans, millions of Arabs and all those witnesses to the Kennedy assassination.

    “…and yes, I am “stupid enough” to believe the NIST WTC 7 collapse hypothesis, because unlike yours for explosives, there’s actually evidence for theirs.”

    You always dismiss the TWO peer reviewed studies on the subject of evidence of a controlled demolition by pointing out that ONE was discredited.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/

    http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

    What about the other one? And is there an actual response to either of them that involves a rational argument against the evidence and goes beyond attacking the source for not being legitimate?

    And while we’re on the topic of evidence, what about all the explosions? Did NIST explain them all away?

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_firefighters.html

    What about the explosions that occurred BEFORE either plane hit? Where’s the official explanation for those explosions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3uFvOiTNz4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc23nPsmP_Q

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2uKVfQDrJw

    http://disinter.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/evidence-of-bomb-explosion-before-first-plane-hit/

    http://civicsnews.blogspot.com/2009/09/explosion-below-building-before-plane.html

    “One look at the framing plan makes it very obvious that the failure of even one of the interior W14 X 730 built-up core columns would easily trigger a complete collapse.”

    Can’t explain the lack of any resistance, nor can you explain why it was perfectly symmetrical.

  1535. Albury Smith on

    had a poured-in-place, steel-reinforced concrete core, which is all that kept the entire structure from collapsing. The steel-framed portion exposed to fire was very quickly fubar. WTC 7’s framing plan makes it obvious why it collapsed inward, since the closely-spaced moment-connected perimeter columns could not have gone any other way. No slag at all would be anywhere near an end that was explosively cut (duh), and incendiaries leave a yellowish mess that a blind man would have seen.
    You’d have to be completely nuts to believe that 83 columns up to W14 X 730 (#per lineal foot) were all quietly and secretly cut with explosives in a few seconds, and then left no evidence in the debris. Here’s the usual way of cutting one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c2o8k4n9CY
    Lotsa luck doing in a split second what a big band saw and loads of water take ~7-1/2 minutes to do in a shop.

  1536. Albury Smith on

    investigators come from a variety of different science and engineering disciplines, but the majority are structural engineers. Their findings are legitimately peer-reviewed on the ASCE and other professional web sites, while the bunk from your “researchers” is largely ignored, although Dr. Marie Paule Pileni’s resignation as Bentham’s editor-in-chief was her peer review of the “Active Thermite…” shaggy dog/straw man malarkey. Serious scientists don’t really care what rust, sulfur, aluminum, silicon, etc. “remind” someone of, and painting explosives on columns to cut them is an absurdity. Harrit and Jones could pee down your leg and tell you it’s raining.

  1537. Albury Smith on

    especially those in Zurich (2), London, and Copenhagen, just look for opportunities to hand out hundreds of millions, especially to guys who publicly admit to blowing up their properties, and yes, I am “stupid enough” to believe the NIST WTC 7 collapse hypothesis, because unlike yours for explosives, there’s actually evidence for theirs. One look at the framing plan makes it very obvious that the failure of even one of the interior W14 X 730 built-up core columns would easily trigger a complete collapse.

  1538. DML on

    “http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/team_members.cfm”

    All those guys are experts in fire. None of them are experts in explosives or demolition. If you were Bush/Cheney and wanted them to come to the conclusion that fire caused the collapse of all three buildings, you wouldn’t want anyone looking into explosives either. That’s why the columns were shipped off to Asia illegally – hiding the evidence.

    “http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/04/bentham-editor-resigns-over-steven.html”

    That’s only one journal out of the two cited. I guess you have no way to dismiss the validity of the other peer-reviewed journal, then?

  1539. DML on

    “The whole FDNY is a big bunch of cowards who know that >300 of their colleagues were murdered by secret explosives that collapsed hi-rise buildings, but are just too scared to speak,…”

    Maybe not all of them, but certainly not none of them.

    “even though there’s no shortage of brave truther nuts out there willing to tell everyone stupid enough to listen”

    You’re stupid enough to believe that the failure of one core column in WTC 7 could result in the simultaneous failure of all columns with no visible resistance. You probably believe that JFK was killed by Oswald, nuclear power is safe, climate change is a hoax, pharmaceuticals are safer and more effective than herbs and cannabis causes cancer.

    “and 12 different insurance companies all forked over hundreds of millions each to a guy who publicly admitted to planting bombs in his property.”

    Since when has any false flag operation resulted in exposure by insurance companies? They’re not the most anti-establishment entities on planet earth.

  1540. David762 on

    “Incendiaries are not used to ‘destroy buildings’, because they don’t burn sideways without very bulky and impractical restrains, and their effects on steel are impossible to time with the necessary precision.”

    Well, WTC-1, WTC-2, AND WTC-7 were brought down by controlled demolition, and samples of the steel from the ‘cut ends’ of some of the girders included slag with a high sulfur content. I was not arguing that shaped charges were not also used — only that ‘thermate’ use was far more likely than ‘thermite’ — the only rational explanation for any sulfur being present at all. And some people did notice, although they were primarily focused on victim recovery and clearing debris. The World Trade Center was a crime scene, and most of the evidence was sequestered and then shipped overseas — additional crimes that hopefully one day will also be punished.

    “You’re also fos about the temperatures in the WTC debris: [link] and have something seriously wrong with you if you think any incendiary or explosive keeps burning for weeks.”

    Again with the insults, coupled with a straw-man argument that anyone besides you has promulgated the notion that a huge pool of molten metal was somehow kept that way through continued application of heat, whether by thermate (incendiary) or explosives. DML was correct — you are either in denial, a sycophant, or a paid shill. I’m tending to believe the latter, which imho is far worse.

    BTW, answer the f*cking question, if you can: “How does a concrete and steel building which sustained only asymmetric damage fall symmetrically at very nearly the speed of gravity in a vacuum?”
    And no bullshit answers. WTC-7 had no such damage, yet it fell in identical fashion. In May 2002, a steel and concrete office building in Madrid Spain caught fire in its upper floors that burned not for an hour but for over 28 hours, and never collapsed. That is how steel-framed structures normally behave, because that is the way they were designed.

  1541. Albury Smith on

    are not used to “destroy buildings,” because they don’t burn sideways without very bulky and impractical restraints, and their effects on steel are impossible to time with the necessary precision. If you’ve ever seen what an incendiary grenade does to a truck engine, you’d also realize that multiple messes like that on column ends would not have gone unnoticed at GZ by ~40,000 people during ~8 months of cleanup.
    You’re also fos about the temperatures in the WTC debris:
    http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
    and have something seriously wrong with you if you think any incendiary or explosive keeps burning for weeks.

  1542. Albury Smith on

    Your “researchers” routinely make fools of themselves in debates with sane people, and declare victory anyway, citing “polls” from audiences that are 90% truther nuts to begin with. They’re serial liars, and cannot answer even one of the questions I posted here, nor can you. You’re totally ignoring the qualifications of these people:
    http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/team_members.cfm
    and won’t find even one paper on the ASCE, RIBA, or AIA sites that supports any of the crap from Box Boy, Water Boy, Grifter, the Loose Change punks, Jones, Harrit, or any of your other 9/11 “truth movement” luminaries, so spare me the “credentials” thing. They’re an embarrassment to real professionals.
    btw, here’s the peer review you asked for on the Bentham nonsense:
    http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2009/04/bentham-editor-resigns-over-steven.html

  1543. Albury Smith on

    The whole FDNY is a big bunch of cowards who know that >300 of their colleagues were murdered by secret explosives that collapsed hi-rise buildings, but are just too scared to speak, even though there’s no shortage of brave truther nuts out there willing to tell everyone stupid enough to listen, and 12 different insurance companies all forked over hundreds of millions each to a guy who publicly admitted to planting bombs in his property.
    The dog ate you homework a lot too, didn’t he?

  1544. David762 on

    Try ‘googling’ the difference between ‘thermite’ and ‘thermate’. Thermate is not only easier to initiate, but also burns hotter than thermite. In steel, glass, and concrete structures like the WTC offices, full of electrical wiring and computer network wiring could easily explain some traces of copper, but not sulfur.

    Some specialty thermite is designed to weld copper buss bars — underground utility workers in NYC sometimes use that — oxides of copper substituted for oxides of iron to fuel the burning powdered aluminum. Some specialty thermite uses other metal oxides, particularly when creating exotic metal alloys with aluminum especially.

    Thermate, a specialty blend of thermite which uses sulfur, is used by the military (any military) to destroy buildings, armaments likely to fall into enemy hands, etcetera, And is also extensively used by civilian building demolition teams in conjunction with shaped charges.

    Satellite imagery of Ground Zero showed pools of molten metal at 3,000 – 4,800 degrees in the debris, far hotter than achievable with even fully oxygenated aviation fuel, for weeks afterwards.

  1545. David762 on

    The Neo-Colonial Mercantile Empire of the USA started far earlier than you have alluded to, David. Terrorism, False-Flag Terrorism and Domestic Terrorism are part and parcel of Empire. For those who seek the real truth, as ugly as that may be, should ‘google’: Operation Gladio | Operation Northwoods | Operation Mockingbird | COINTELPRO | ‘Policy for a New American Century’ / ‘a new pearl harbor’.

    9/11/2001 wasn’t an accident. 9/11/2001 wasn’t just ‘blowback’ from a century of failed (regarding democracy) foreign policies. The biggest proofs: Tower 1, Tower 2, and Building 7 dropped neatly into their own footprints at a rate nearly 4 times faster than they ‘should’ have if ‘pancaking’ was a factor; how huge a coincidence could it be that 2 separate ’emergency management’ and ‘national security’ drills were happening on the very same morning that the airliner high-jackings took place (1) a simulated small plane crash into the NRO (satellite recon) offices in Chantilly, VA and (2) a NORAD drill in response to Russian (?) aircraft penetrating US airspace.

    The first proof, the building demolitions, implicitly implies pre-positioning of explosive devices in the buildings. The second proof, the timing of emergency drills regarding aircraft, implicitly implies at least the sharing of privileged/secret government information with ‘Islamist terrorists’. And I could go on for pages and pages of additional ‘coincidences’ and wtf’s, but I don’t have the time to list what many pathfinders of truth have done before me.

  1546. DML on

    “Silverstein HAD to insure for a terrorist attack,…”

    Proof?

    “… and his creditors forced him to increase the coverage.”

    Proof?

    “It wasn’t his “right” to spend ~$10 billion rebuilding; the towers are obligations written into his lease with the PA,…”

    Proof?

    “…and he built and owned WTC 7. The WTC offices were ~95% leased in 2001,…”

    Evidence that much of the building was empty and un-leased:

    http://letsrollforums.com/press-release-world-trade-t24256.html

    You have any evidence to the contrary?

    “It was only in the bottom 38 floors of the North Tower, and most of that was abated in various tenant fit-outs prior to 2001.”

    Proof?

    “Only a complete idiot would demolish 3 perfectly good hi-rises because of a few abatement issues left in 1 of them,…”

    A 4.6 billion dollar return on a 14 million dollar investment sounds pretty attractive to me – as long as you have no heart.

    “…while you park cars, flip burgers, or something.”

    I organize mass civil disobedience against the genocide of the herb people. I have a herb museum and an art gallery. I defend myself in court on pot-related issues. I have my own pot-history magazine and I write articles for this website.

    What do you do for a living that allows you to be the #1 9/11 shill on the internet?

  1547. DML on

    Box Boy, Water Boy, Jones, and your other “researchers”…

    The researchers that you put in quotes have more impressive credentials than you do:

    http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

    What does that make you then? Just a sanctimonious “researcher”/shill for the evil empire who uses ellipsis but doesn’t understand they also indicate pauses … who can’t seem to understand that core columns provide more than just a few seconds of resistance when they’re made of four inch steel.

    Here are some videos for ya … I triple dog dare you to debate any of these folks in public:

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-explosive-evidence-experts-speak-out/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIl4ySTfX8g&feature=player_embedded

    “A demolition that is planned as part of a covert operation to fit a narrative of events that attributes the total destruction of the building to a different cause (such as a jetliner crash and consequent fires) has a very different set of requirements than a demolition that is planned to legally remove a building in an urban setting. An examination of the technologies of energetic materials and wireless detonation available to insiders who had the means to coordinate the attack of 9/11/2001 suggests plausible scenarios by which the Twin Towers and Building 7 might have been subjected to controlled demolitions on 9/11/2001.” – Source: http://www.911review.com/means/demolition/covert.html

  1548. DML on

    “Aren’t they as knowledgeable and astute as you and your “truth movement” are, or don’t they care what killed 343 of their colleagues, close friends, relatives, etc.?”

    Maybe they are scared to publicly oppose a government that would kill 3000 Americans – and millions of Arabs – so casually.

    Like I said before … it’s easier to parrot your government than question it. I asked you if you ever publicly came out against anything your own government said … and you declined to answer. Hmmmm.

    You declined to comment on all the dead JFK assassination witnesses. I guess you’re in denial of the crimes of the US establishment.

    So what’s your take on Kennedy? You think it was a lone nut? I bet you do.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_XnKjS3oWs

    “btw, please keep your penis obsession to yourself; I’m not interested.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv2qLOiioPc

  1549. Albury Smith on

    Silverstein HAD to insure for a terrorist attack, and his creditors forced him to increase the coverage. It wasn’t his “right” to spend ~$10 billion rebuilding; the towers are obligations written into his lease with the PA, and he built and owned WTC 7. The WTC offices were ~95% leased in 2001, and any “asbestos problem” in them is a total fabrication of your 9/11 “truth movement.” It was only in the bottom 38 floors of the North Tower, and most of that was abated in various tenant fit-outs prior to 2001.
    Only a complete idiot would demolish 3 perfectly good hi-rises because of a few abatement issues left in 1 of them, and the PA and Silverstein manage real estate for a living, while you park cars, flip burgers, or something.

  1550. Albury Smith on

    Not 1 member of the 9/11 Commission was an engineer or scientist, and the scope of their investigation had nothing to do with any of the building collapses or damage, so why is their informal reference to a collapse time so important to you? Here’s what NIST said on the topic:

    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm
    “NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2.”
    Anyone who’s looked at a tower collapse video and isn’t braindead stupid has noticed that the airborne debris outpaced the collapse zones by a huge margin, so it’s pretty obvious that they didn’t free fall.

    If you were actually interested in how long each one took, you’d time them:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/39/qLShZOvxVe4
    15+ and 22+ seconds are not “near free fall time,” when that time is ~9.22 seconds.

    Box Boy, Water Boy, Jones, and your other “researchers” are also lying about WTC 7, which took ~8-1/2 seconds, although it’s impossible to give a time to the nearest 1/10 second. It’s pure ignorance to claim that collapse times are evidence of the cause, but they can’t even get them right.

  1551. Albury Smith on

    Since you’re so keenly (and selectively) interested in what the FDNY had to say about the events of 9/11, here’s the “firefighters” for 9/11 “truth” petition:

    http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?page_id=469

    Please feel free to count the number of signatories to it who even CLAIM to be FDNY. If there’s an “FDNYfor9/11truth,” please post the link.

    Aren’t they as knowledgeable and astute as you and your “truth movement” are, or don’t they care what killed 343 of their colleagues, close friends, relatives, etc.?

    btw, please keep your penis obsession to yourself; I’m not interested.

  1552. DML on

    There was $200 million in abatement costs from the 38 floors of asbestos.

    At full capacity, it would result in $200 million dollars worth of rent.

    It was far below capacity.

    The Port Authority wasn’t allowed to destroy it because of the asbestos.

    The only way Larry could use his right to rebuild on the site was if his property was destroyed by terrorism – an eventuality he insured for.

    None of the above BS addresses any of these points.

  1553. DML on

    “…does not stay molten without a heat source,”

    So what is the official explanation? What is your explanation? Where is your source to back up the fact that at least some of it could not possibly remain molten buried under piles of rubble if shitloads of it were heated up with nanothermite?

    “… and I’ve already posted the source that kept lead and aluminum molten for ~3 months.”

    What color is lead or aluminum when it’s molten?

    Is it this color?:

    http://www.google.ca/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1628&bih=874&q=9+11+molten+metal&gbv=2&oq=9%2F11+molte&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=1&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=1472l6502l0l9420l16l15l1l0l0l0l349l2738l1.8.3.2l14l0

    Does jet fuel and burning office furniture keep it molten for months?

    “If that obvious fact is evidence to you of controlled demolition,…”

    The symmetrical collapse from asymmetrical damage is the smoking gun … the rest is simply corroboration.

    “…then what explosives burn that long? I added incendiaries to the question, but only your “truth movement” thinks they’re used in C/Ds, no doubt because they can’t get around the fact that demolition explosives weren’t heard.”

    9/11 news conference in which Rudolph Giuliani acknowledges explosions in the area of the World Trade Center and says he does not believe they were gas related – “…we’ve turned off the gas in the city buildings just to be certain, as a precaution.”

    WMV video download (607kB)

    9/11 Firefighters: Bombs and
    Explosions in the WTC
    The independent commission probing the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington decided not to hear from the worker group that lost more lives than anyone else to the terrorists: The Fire Fighters. [Workday Minnesota]

    [Firefighter Louie] Cacchioli was called to testify privately [before the 9/11 Commission], but walked out on several members of the committee before they finished, feeling like he was being interrogated and cross-examined rather than simply allowed to tell the truth about what occurred in the north tower on 9/11. “My story was never mentioned in the final report [PDF download] and I felt like I was being put on trial in a court room,” said Cacchioli. “I finally walked out. They were trying to twist my words and make the story fit only what they wanted to hear. All I wanted to do was tell the truth and when they wouldn’t let me do that, I walked out. … It was a disgrace to everyone, the victims and the family members who lost loved ones. I don’t agree with the 9/11 Commission. The whole experience was terrible.” [Arctic Beacon]
    Edmund McNally phoned his wife Liz twice following the
    [WTC 2] aircraft impact. Mr McNally said in his second phone call “Liz, this was a terrorist attack. I can hear explosions below me.” [NY Times]

    Tom Elliott, WTC 2 survivor: They saw only two firemen going up. They told them there had been an explosion near the 60th floor. [csmonitor]

    Kim White, WTC 1 survivor: “We got down as far as the 74th floor … Then there was another explosion, so we left again by the stairwell.” [People]

    WTC 1 explosion on floor 74?

    Explosions occurred below the aircraft impact levels in both towers prior to the collapses. The following gives a reason for the explosions:

    “There’s a bomb in the building – start clearing out”…”We got a secondary device in the building”

    WMV video download (698kB)
    9/11 NBC News broadcast
    [wma download]

    “Shortly after 9 o’clock … [Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit – the first crash that took place – he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building.

    Two WTC impacts. Three explosions reported.

    One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device – he thinks, he speculates – was probably planted in the building. … But the bottom line is that he, Albert Turi, said that he probably lost a great many men in those secondary explosions, and he said that there were literally hundreds, if not thousands, of people in those towers when the explosions took place.”

    Firefighter Schroeder recollects in great detail how he was one of the first firefighters to rush to the complex. “We first assembled on West Street, where we saw someone burnt beyond recognition. We were like ‘What is going on here?’ and then went straight into the Marriot building” From there, Firefighter Schroeder made his way to the lobby of the North Tower. “It looked like a bomb went off, and we started making our way up the stairs to rescue as many people as we could.”

    As they were making there way up the floors, Firefighter Schroeder heard a huge explosion. “The elevators just blew right out. We couldn’t believe it. The plane hits 80 floors up but the elevators explode at least five minutes later? It was unreal.”

    Firefighter Schroeder made it all the way up to the 23rd floor before barely hearing on the failing radios that another plane was coming in. That plane would hit the South Tower though for some reason “We were tossed like a rag doll by another explosion in our building. People were making there way down the stairwells burnt like you couldn’t believe. We were all shocked because it seemed as if there was fire everywhere, on so many floors. It just didn’t make sense”. [Prison Planet]

    Lou Cacchioli, Firefighter in WTC 1: At that point, Cacchioli found one of the only functioning elevators, one only going as high as the 24th floor … “Tommy Hetzel was with me and everybody else also gets out of the elevator when it stops on the 24th floor,” said Cacchioli, “There was a huge amount of smoke. Tommy and I had to go back down the elevator for tools and no sooner did the elevators close behind us, we heard this huge explosion that sounded like a bomb. It was such a loud noise, it knocked off the lights and stalled the elevator.

    “Luckily, we weren’t caught between floors and were able to pry open the doors. People were going crazy, yelling and screaming. And all the time, I am crawling low and making my way in the dark with a flashlight to the staircase and thinking Tommy is right behind me. “I somehow got into the stairwell and there were more people there. When I began to try and direct down, another huge explosion like the first one hits. This one hits about two minutes later, although it’s hard to tell, but I’m thinking, ‘Oh. My God, these bastards put bombs in here like they did in 1993!’ [Arctic Beacon]
    “…then somebody said that they saw an airliner go into one of those towers. Then, an hour later than that we had that big explosion from much, much lower down and I don’t know what caused that.”

    WMV video download (268kB)
    “I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions.” [Craig Carlsen — Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)]

    The audio track of the following video catches the explosions:
    Video showing the lead up to, and the collapse of WTC 2.

    WMV video dowenload (2.8 MB)
    A point to note about the above video is the sounds of the explosions consist of low frequencies only.

    The absence of high frequencies indicates the sounds were not transmitted through the air to the camera’s microphone but through the ground – they reached the microphone via the tripod.

    This in turn indicates that the explosions occurred below ground level (note where the smoke originates in the video).

    ‘Just before the collapses, a series of deep, below ground explosions, then numerous explosions in the buildings upper floors …We felt the same deep explosions before the second collapse.” [Prison Planet]

    Smoke at the base of WTC 2
    How could an aircraft impact at floors 78+ of WTC 2 cause numerous large explosions at the base of the building?
    Firefighters shocked by a loud explosion.

    WMV video download (306kB)
    “At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion … And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last.”

    WMV video download (231kB)
    “We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses.”

    MOV video download (321kB)
    “As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion.”

    WMV video download (181kB)
    “We really never even got that close to the building. The explosion blew and it knocked everybody over”

    WMV video download (110kB)

    More 9/11 News Videos Reporting
    World Trade Center Explosions
    “At that point, a debate began to rage because. . . many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade, and officers were gathering companies together and the officers were debating whether or not to go immediately back in or to see what was going to happen with 1 World Trade at that point. The debate ended pretty quickly because 1 World Trade came down.” [Christopher Fenyo – Firefighter]

    “I said, ‘Chief, they’re evacuating the other building; right?’ He said, ‘No.’ . . . I said, ‘Why not? They blew up the other one.’ I thought they blew it up with a bomb. I said, ‘If they blew up the one, you know they’re gonna blow up the other one.’ He said, ‘No, they’re not.’ I said, ‘Well, you gotta tell them to evacuate it, because it’s gonna fall down and you gotta get the guys out.’ He said, ‘I’m just the Battalion Chief. I can’t order that.’ . . . I said, ‘You got a fucking radio and you got a fucking mouth. Use the fucking things. Empty this fucking building.’ Again he said, ‘I’m just a Battalion Chief. I can’t do that.’ . . . Eventually this other chief came back and said, ‘They are evacuating this tower.’ . . . And sometime after that . . . I watched the north tower fall.” [William Reynolds – Firefighter]
    “I spoke with some police officials … and they told me they have reason to believe that one of the explosions at the World Trade Center … may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some type of explosive device in it.”

    WMV video download (807kB)

    “But at a quarter to 11:00 there was another collapse or explosion following the 10:30 collapse of the second tower. And a firefighter who rushed by us estimated that 50 stories went down. The street filled with smoke. It was like a forest fire roaring down a canyon.” [CNN]

    Was WTC 7 supposed to collapse at 10:45 a.m.?
    [Lieutenant Fireman and former Auxiliary Police Officer, Paul Isaac Jr.] explained to me that, “many other firemen know there were bombs in the buildings, but they’re afraid for their jobs to admit it because the ‘higher-ups’ forbid discussion of this fact.” Paul further elaborated that former CIA director Robert Woolsey, as the Fire Department’s Anti-terrorism Consultant, is sending a gag order down the ranks. “There were definitely bombs in those buildings,” he told me. [Prison Planet]

    WTC Firefighters Tape: Explosions and Aftermath

    “Tower two has had major explosion and what appears to be a complete collapse” … “…those involved in the secondary explosion at tower 1, ‘kay, I’ve got five patients…” … “We have got numerous people covered in dust from the secondary explosion…” … “We’ve got another explosion at the tower…”

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_firefighters.html

    “As for your pathetic attempts to moralize, I’m not libeling innocent people and exculpating the al Qaeda terrorists who committed the 9/11 SUICIDE atrocity, the SUICIDE bombing of 2 US embassies prior to it, and the SUICIDE bombing of the USS Cole, among other murderous acts spanning nearly 2 decades.”

    You’re doing much worse. You’re ignoring the evidence – outlined in the article above – of a history of false-flag operations beginning every major war of the 20th century, and giving the benefit of the doubt to war criminals and mass murderers. You’ve got Dick Cheney’s scaly cock jammed so far down your throat you’ve forgotten what it is to be moral.

  1554. Albury Smith on

    between airborne asbestos and other toxins caused by the collapse of burning buildings, and a pre-existing “asbestos problem” in a building. The code change occurred during the closing in of the North Tower, so the bottom 38 floors had asbestos in the SFRM, most of which had been abated during tenant fit-outs prior to 2001. There were no unacceptable levels of asbestos in any floor of the South Tower, and WTC 7 was built in 1986-7, long after the code was changed.
    There was nothing “strange” about another terrorist attack on the towers, or suspicious about insuring against another one, and Silverstein’s creditors forced him to increase his coverage. He did not profit from the 9/11 attacks, and his contractual obligation to rebuild will put his losses well over the $7 billion mark, factoring in the $4.68 billion total he collected from his 12 insurers.
    The decision to set up a safety perimeter was made by the FDNY around 2:30 PM, and is corroborated by testimony from numerous eyewitnesses in the FDNY:

    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofwtc7fires

    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/accountsofwtc7damage

    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

    as well as from other sources.

    Please spare us the crap from truther nut web sites; Jayhan’s a serial liar who thinks the planes and even the jumpers were faked. The towers were ~95% rented on 9/11, as was WTC 7. Silverstein built and owned the latter, and had a long-term ~$100 million/yr lease w/ Salomon. You and I could retire comfortably just on the lost cash flow from one month. He’s also still paying ~$10 million/month to the PA for the site where the towers stood, and isn’t collecting a dime from it.

  1555. Albury Smith on

    does not stay molten without a heat source, and I’ve already posted the source that kept lead and aluminum molten for ~3 months. If that obvious fact is evidence to you of controlled demolition, then what explosives burn that long? I added incendiaries to the question, but only your “truth movement” thinks they’re used in C/Ds, no doubt because they can’t get around the fact that demolition explosives weren’t heard.
    As for your pathetic attempts to moralize, I’m not libeling innocent people and exculpating the al Qaeda terrorists who committed the 9/11 SUICIDE atrocity, the SUICIDE bombing of 2 US embassies prior to it, and the SUICIDE bombing of the USS Cole, among other murderous acts spanning nearly 2 decades.

  1556. DML on

    “…and paid to publish their “findings” in a discredited venue…”

    I provided two sources for the nanothermite evidence. Which one was discredited? What’s your source for the discreditation argument?

    “I simply asked you to list some of the explosives or incendiaries you know of that burn for months.”

    And I simply asked you why, if all that was required to get molten metal to EXIST for months was something that BURNED for seconds, should I have to provide evidence of an incendiary that burns for MONTHS?

    “Jeezus; I hope you have competent adult supervision…”

    Oh … so you do know what an ellipsis is. Perhaps you didn’t know you could use it as a pause. I hope you can see the hell you are destined for by volunteering to cover up mass murder. The same government that pretended that cannabis is toxic and dangerous or pretended that there was WMDs in Iraq is the one you’re giving the benefit of the doubt to. Do you believe in an afterlife? Or are you squandering your only existence on evil deeds now?

  1557. DML on

    “Is English your 2nd language or something?”

    “An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech … The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (…)”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

    I can’t decide if you’re playing dumb or you’re really dumb. Either way you’re a douchenozzle.

    “Buildings collapse because the resistance fails, and the towers and WTC 7 all took considerably longer than free fall time.”

    Therefore, air resistance alone will make it take longer than 10 seconds for gravity to pull an object to the ground from the towers’ former height.

    Observations from 9/11

    On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report, we are told, in the government’s “complete and final report” of 9/11, that the South Tower “collapsed” in 10 seconds. Here is the exact quote: “At 9:58:59, the South Tower collapsed in ten seconds”. (That’s the government’s official number. Videos confirm that it fell unnaturally, if not precisely that, fast. See for yourself: QT Real)

    But as we’ve just determined, that’s free-fall time. That’s close to the free-fall time in a vacuum, and an exceptionally rapid free-fall time through air.

    But the “collapse” proceeded “through” the lower stories of the tower. Those undamaged floors below the impact zone would have offered resistance that is thousands of times greater than air. Recall that those lower stories had successfully supported the mass of the tower for 30 years.

    Air can’t do that.

    Can anyone possibly imagine the supposedly-undamaged lower floors getting out of the way of the upper floors as effortlessly as air would? Can anyone possibly imagine the lower stories slowing any kind of fall of the upper floors less than would, say, a parachute? (And what energy source could have reduced the height of [most of] the columns, top-down, at the same rate?)

    You can move your arms and legs, non-destructively, through water — a liquid fluid — but not anywhere near as rapidly as you can through air. You certainly can’t move your arms and legs through solids as rapidly as you can through air. And neither can gravity.

    It is beyond the scope of the simple, but uncontested, physics in this presentation to tell you how long a gravitational collapse through the path of maximum resistance should [sic] have taken. Would it have taken a minute? An hour? A day? Forever?

    Perhaps. But what is certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, is that the towers could not have collapsed gravitationally, through intact lower stories, as rapidly as was observed on 9/11.

    http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

  1558. DML on

    “You’re flat-out lying about an “asbestos problem” in any of the 3 collapsed WTC hi-rises,…”

    Really? Please then find the evidence to refute the following sources:

    “The suit sought recovery of the Port Authority’s huge expenses of removing asbestos from hundreds of properties ranging from the enormous World Trade Center complex-which represented more than $200 million of the abatement costs…”
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Spingola/deanna39.htm

    “…hundreds of thousands of tons of asbestos-containing products used in the floors, walls, ceilings and steel frame of the twin towers.”
    http://www.asbestos.org/news/wtc_02_newfinding.html

    “Other New York developers had apparently been driven to bankruptcy by the costly mandated renovations and the prospect of $200 million to plug those losses, which represented an entire year’s worth of revenues from the World Trade Towers at full rental capacity.”
    http://www.infowars.com/the-great-911-insurance-bonanza/

    Evidence that much of the building was empty and unleased:

    http://letsrollforums.com/press-release-world-trade-t24256.html

    “It is indeed strange, Watson notes, that any “building that was not owned by Silverstein Properties that day strangely remained upright, despite being a lot closer to the two towers that collapsed onto them,” leading no shortage of people to smell something rotten in Brooklyn – or rather on Manhattan.”
    http://www.infowars.com/of-white-elephants-and-demolition-jesse-ventura-on-the-howard-stern-show/

    “…and if you think $4.68 billion covers two towers at an estimated rebuilding cost of $9 billion total,…”

    Considering Silverstine only needed 14 million as an initial investment, it appears that he could find the rest of the money somewhere else again, as he did the first time:

    “Silverstein put up $14 million of his own money to secure the deal.[15]”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein

    Doesn’t it make sense that you can leverage more with 4.68 billion than you can with 14 million?

    “…plus $700 million to rebuild WTC 7…”

    “We know that WTC7’s developer and lease-holder, Silverstein Properties, and WTC7’s mortgage-holders, the Blackstone Group, Banc of America Securities, and General Motors Acceptance Corporation, received a Court-awarded amount of $861 million dollars from Industrial Risk Insurers in February 2002. We know that about $386 million had been invested in WTC7 before its destruction. The Court-award meant that Silverstein Properties and the mortgage-holders would share in about $475 million of profit. [8]”

    8. ‘Rebuilding Begins for 7 WTC Despite Unanswered Questions’, Peter Grant, Wall Street Journal, July 10, 2002, http://homes.wsj.com/columnists_com/bricks/20020710-bricks.html .
    http://www.american-reporter.com/2,421W/1494.html
    http://911review.com/attack/wtc/b7.html

    “The “truth movement’s” mangling of the Silverstein PBS quote refers to his saying that “THEY,” the FDNY, “made that decision to pull,” so you’re obviously accusing the fire department of your fantasy demolition, not Silverstein.”

    If you don’t have corroborating evidence from the Fire Department saying “we made the decision to pull the team out” then perhaps he’s just a really shitty liar. Maybe he made the decision to pull it down and blamed it on the fire department. If you do have that evidence then perhaps the head of the FDNY is a mason – or golfing buddies with Silverstein – and got a cut. Either of those explanations make more sense than three symmetrical collapses resulting from three asymmetrical damage patterns happening on one day and one day only.

  1559. Albury Smith on

    should have looked like the core columns in one of the towers? Is English your 2nd language or something? Buildings collapse because the resistance fails, and the towers and WTC 7 all took considerably longer than free fall time. Read NCSTAR 1A for a clear explanation of the ~2.25 seconds of acceleration at near g.

  1560. Albury Smith on

    The substance that your “researchers” were “reminded” of when they made the amazing discovery of rust, sulfur, aluminum, silicon, etc. in some WTC dust samples, and paid to publish their “findings” in a discredited venue, was NANOthermite, not thermite (although they provided no exemplars of anything for comparison), and NANOthermite is a very high explosive. Regardless of which imaginary discovery you choose to believe, I simply asked you to list some of the explosives or incendiaries you know of that burn for months.
    ~40,000 different people at GZ at one time or another will attest to the contents-fueled debris fires, and they burned hot enough to keep lead and aluminum molten into December, but if the Bentham discovery also burns for months after secretly demolishing hi-rises, it may very well be the long-awaited answer to all of our energy needs. Did you know that it also makes a really tasty dessert topping? Mmmmm. Low-cal and eco-friendly too.
    Jeezus; I hope you have competent adult supervision…

  1561. DML on

    “Please link me to some of the known controlled demolitions that have left molten metal in the debris, and list some of the explosives or incendiaries that burn for months.”

    1) Is this your way of dodging having to explain the molten metal? Because if it is it isn’t working. Explain it, please.

    2) This was obviously a unique experience, with a different budget and different goals than a standard demolition. It doesn’t have to mirror every aspect of a controlled demolition to be a controlled demolition, as there are various substances that will accomplish the same goal. But I think you know that and are being obfuscatory.

    3) The metal itself was molten for months. The thermate (found in more than one sample of the debris) itself only needed to burn for as long as it took to melt through the core columns. It didn’t need to burn for months. More obfuscation from the man’s flak catcher. I bet you’re not being paid, but you’re doing this for the same reason every ass-licking todie does … in anticipation of future work for the dark side. Fucking pathetic man. I think you should rethink your whole life.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/

    http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

  1562. Albury Smith on

    You’re flat-out lying about an “asbestos problem” in any of the 3 collapsed WTC hi-rises, and if you think $4.68 billion covers two towers at an estimated rebuilding cost of $9 billion total, plus $700 million to rebuild WTC 7, plus rent to the PA of $120 million/yr, plus loss of cash flow for a decade and counting, I hope you chose another line of work. Your response to the insurance question was especially pathetic. There were TWELVE of them, not 1, and they only contested the claim of 2 incidents because of 2 plane crashes. Apparently the legal departments of these 12 companies, at least 4 of which were foreign-based, aren’t as asture as you are, or just like handing out hundreds of millions in claims to guys who admit to blowing up their properties.
    The “truth movement’s” mangling of the Silverstein PBS quote refers to his saying that “THEY,” the FDNY, “made that decision to pull,” so you’re obviously accusing the fire department of your fantasy demolition, not Silverstein. Since your “researchers” also point to Barry Jennings’ ~10 AM account, it’s really stupid to claim that anyone was still deciding WHETHER to do this imaginary demolition at ~2:30 PM.

  1563. Albury Smith on

    WTC 7’s exterior consisted of very closely spaced and moment connected W14 X 500 columns, and the collapse was triggered by fire-induced partial floor collapses involving the core columns, so how, pray tell, should the final portion of the collapse have looked?
    Buy a clue here:
    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm

  1564. Albury Smith on

    Please link me to some of the known controlled demolitions that have left molten metal in the debris, and list some of the explosives or incendiaries that burn for months.
    Thanks in advance.

  1565. DML on

    Also, you didn’t respond to any of the facts presented in my article.

    Nor have you responded to the facts presented in the video mentioned in the article:

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-explosive-evidence-experts-speak-out/

    The molten metal and symmetrical collapse are particularly interesting. Why not address them?

    Why don’t you do that first and then foist your expectations regarding your own questions afterward? You gotta lead by example here.

  1566. DML on

    “-Why would Larry Silverstein have publicly admitted even to knowing that there were planted explosives in WTC 7 in the first place?”

    Because he was a fucking retard when it came to doing interviews and let it slip. Just as Rumsfeld let it slip that 93 was shot down:

    http://letsrollforums.com/rumsfeld-major-slip-tong-t3624.html
    http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/24/nfcnn.01.html

    Or how Rumsfeld fucked up and let it slip that a missile hit the Pentagon:

    http://jerickweb.50webs.com/hankmcintyre/911_report3.html

    Or how Rumsfeld hinted at his prior knowledge on Sept. 10th:

    http://letsrollforums.com/donald-rumsfeld-pre-911-t6583.html

    It doesn’t take the ability to lie perfectly to carry out 9/11 – just the ability to toss your morality away for material gain … plus a compliant corporate media and flack catchers like yourself willing to shill for the man.

    “-What was Silverstein Properties’ and the FDNY’s motive for blowing up a perfectly good, 14 year-old building, losing hundreds of millions of dollars in cash flow from it for nine years and counting, spending ~$700 million, or most of the $861 million insurance settlement, on the replacement of it, and paying ~$500 million back to lenders?”

    I notice you didn’t ask about his motive for destroying the asbestos-filled white elephants that were WTC 1 and WTC 2. WTC 7 was part of the deal … a bit of a loss-leader so he could make his 4.5 billion insurance return on his 10 million up front that he put into the deal himself. Insurance fraud with other people’s money … totally the American dream!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

    “-Why would any insurance company have paid him a dime instead of the $4.68 BILLION total he received if he publicly admitted to foreknowledge of or complicity in the alleged secret demolition of his property, but especially those based in Copenhagen, Zurich (2 of them), and London? They all contested his claim of two occurrences based on two separate plane crashes, and he won in court in a few instances based on individual contract wording, but there was never any question relating to the causes of any WTC collapse.”

    Because his insurance company was run by spineless and/or bribe-taking and/or blackmail-able people? Maybe he cut some of them in on the deal … a little under-the-table money for the lawyers who were responsible. Or maybe they were scared. Or maybe parts of the US shadow government had some dirt on them.

    “-How did he or the FDNY know that flaming debris from a much taller collapsing hi-rise across the street would hit WTC 7, start multi-story fires in it, and break the water main to it, disabling the sprinklers and providing a cover story for the alleged controlled demolition?”

    A few well-placed bombs could have made sure that would happen:

    http://castoutofeden.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/world_trade_center_site_after_9-11_attacks_with_original_building_locations.jpg

    http://castoutofeden.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/7bn-dollars-a-new-profitable-re-business-and-oil-reserves-in-middle-east-are-worth-3-000-lives/

    “-If the explosives were pre-planted, which would have taken weeks or even months in a vacant building and have been completely impossible to do secretly in an occupied one,…”

    Your premise – that it would be impossible to plant explosives – is illogical, given the evidence:

    http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_09.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9YjOQ076F4

    http://911blogger.com/node/2487

    96. On May 3, 2001, the DEA Orlando District Office was visited by an Israeli art student at approximately 1:00 p.m. This subject was detained and identified as Peer SEGALOVITZ (DOB: 03-16-1974). … SEGALOVITZ acknowledged he could blow up buildings, bridges, cars and anything else that he needed too.
    http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Bomb_sniffing_dogs_were_removed_from_the_building

    “…and Barry Jennings heard some of them go off around 10 AM, why was there any discussion at all in mid-afternoon about whether or not to demolish WTC 7 with the other apparently fireproof explosives allegedly planted a few stories higher?”

    Sorry … I don’t understand this question … could you rephrase it?

    “-Do controlled demolitions take seven or eight hours to collapse a building?”

    WTC 1, 2 and 7 collapsed in seconds. I don’t understand this question either.

    “-Do they leave no severed columns with copper residue on the ends, or any other evidence in the debris?”

    So where is the column evidence? Oh right, it got illegally shipped off to Asia. Convenient for those who now cite a lack of evidence of copper residue.

    And there’s plenty of evidence of thermite and/or thermate in the debris … not to mention the molten metal. But you ignore that evidence.

    “-Do they leave ~12 stories on one corner standing?”

    If a demolition expert wanted to leave 12 stories on one corner standing they could probably do that. Please provide a link to what you are referring to so I know what you’re talking about.

    “-Is the FDNY in the controlled demolition business? What other buildings, on fire or not, have they demolished before or since 9/11?”

    Where do I say that the FDNY demolished the building? Where does anyone say that? Strawman argument.

    “-Please link me to a C/D contractor’s web site, and show me the use of “pull” or “pull it” to refer to building demolition using explosives, not one in which cables are used to pull an already damaged building over, as was done with WTC 6.”

    There are no “list of industry terms” websites available – with or without that term. There is, however, the following evidence:

    Was the term “PULL IT” and industry term prior to 9/11 ?
    http://911review.org/WTC/WTC7_pullit_Industry-term.html

    For those who still question what Larry Silverstein meant when he said “pull it” when talking about the collapse of the WTC 7, Jeff from PumpItOut.com called demolition experts Controlled Demolition, Inc (CDI) and asked them what “pull it” means in demolition terms. This is what CDI told him:

    CDI: “Pull it” is when they actually pull it down.

    http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/06/cdi-pull-it-means-pull-it-down_30.html

    “-How does a “terrible loss of life” in the WTC towers affect a later decision to demolish a nearby building with no one in it?”

    Part of the deal. I can tell you how the conversation probably went: “Larry, buy these buildings, use other people’s money, insure them for terrorism, collect your billions and in exchange let us destroy WTC 7 to cover up our Enron fraud/Bush campaign contributions and other Wall St. fraud and to destroy the HQ of the demolition button-pushing team. Deal?” “How can I say no to you guys?”

    “…why are there only a few FDNY in the 9/11 “truth movement”?”

    There are some.

    http://firefightersfor911truth.org/?page_id=469
    http://911blogger.com/topics/fdny

    About the same number of witnesses to the Kennedy assassination that are still alive:

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm
    http://www.maebrussell.com/Disappearing%20Witnesses/Disappearing%20Witnesses.html

    Believe it or not, it’s actually a lot safer to back up official government stories than it is to question them … or even witness them.

    Have you ever questioned anything your government told you? Publicly? Please provide the links if the answer is yes … and consider how scared most people are about doing so regardless of your answer. I bet you’ve towed the line your whole life … a good little lap dog apparatchik. Prove me wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik

    “Do you know whether ConEd’s insurers just absorbed the loss of tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure damage and restoration and then subrogated Industrial Risk Insurers, since Larry Silverstein’s firm was still the responsible party, especially if he deliberately caused the damage?”

    No. Enlighten me.

    Now that I’ve answered as many of your questions as possible, answer ONE of mine:

    How do you get a symmetrical collapse from asymmetrical damage? And how do you get that three times in one day?

    Please … I would love to know the answer to this one – especially from someone so familiar with the facts of the matter as you are.

  1567. DML on

    Your constant waving the bloody shirt by invoking victims of 9/11 is no more honorable than Hitler claiming that Germans were killed in Gleiwitz.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waving_the_bloody_shirt

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

    “…what was the reason for its alleged controlled demolition in the first place?”

    To cover up the connections between Bush and Enron and all the rest of the corporate crimes being investigated by the SEC (who had offices in the World Trade Center) … not to mention destroying the evidence for the command center for the destruction of WTC 1 and WTC 2 (CIA also had offices in WTC 7) – see the response directly above yours for the links.

    “… absurd claims based on junk science by profiteering charlatans like Richard Gage and his “engineers,”

    So it’s “absurd” to point out that NIST didn’t look for evidence of explosives, or that the metal was shipped out of the country ILLEGALLY ? And have you seen this video?

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-explosive-evidence-experts-speak-out/

    Those “engineers” you put in quotations are – for the most part – leaders in their fields, and have a lot more experience than you do. I guess you haven’t bothered to watch the video.

    “…when you obviously haven’t even bothered to read NCSTAR 1A, which is the product of a thorough and very competent investigation by people with real science and engineering credentials?”

    Link, please?

    I’ve read these three peer-reviewed studies … they’re pretty convincing. Please provide responses to all the points they bring up:

    http://www.bentham.org/open/tociej/articles/V002/35TOCIEJ.pdf

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/

    http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

    “Why do you urge people to “ask OFFICIALS to investigate Building 7,” when at least 125 of the scientists and engineers involved in the NIST investigation of WTC 7 were CIVILIANS from academia and private industry?”

    Because there are over 1,600 verified architectural and engineering professionals who say NIST is full of shit. Here are their names and where they work:

    http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php

    “Robert wasn’t even in WTC 7 when Muhammad Atta flew the hijacked Boeing 767 into WTC 1 ten stories below him on the morning of 9/11/01, …”

    Ah yes, Atta, who was both under surveillance AND in the US illegally!:

    And in January 2000 Atta is also put under surveillance by the CIA while still living in Germany.
    (AFP, 9/22/01; Focus, 9/24/01; Berliner Zeitung, 9/24/01)

    http://911review.org/JohnDoe2/Atta2.html

    Why didn’t the alleged hijackers care about being legally in the US?
    Why did they even run the risk to leave the country without any visa that assured that they would be able to return to the US?
    Why did they always have the luck on their side?

    Have you seen these analyses of the evidence of problems with the official hijacker story?:

    http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=65

    http://z15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14331

    I’m sure someone like yourself has a way to explain all those discrepancies and fuck-ups … in the worst case of terrorism in US history.

    “The FDNY feared that it would eventually collapse, which is why they abandoned any effort to fight the fires and pulled everyone back…”

    He didn’t say “pull everyone” … he said “pull it” – nice re-writing of history there.

    Was the term “PULL IT” and industry term prior to 9/11 ?
    http://911review.org/WTC/WTC7_pullit_Industry-term.html

    For those who still question what Larry Silverstein meant when he said “pull it” when talking about the collapse of the WTC 7, Jeff from PumpItOut.com called demolition experts Controlled Demolition, Inc (CDI) and asked them what “pull it” means in demolition terms. This is what CDI told him:

    CDI: “Pull it” is when they actually pull it down.

    http://killtown.blogspot.com/2006/06/cdi-pull-it-means-pull-it-down_30.html

    “…since you’ve fallen prey to the manipulative liars of the 9/11 “truth movement” and think Larry Silverstein destroyed his own property or knew about it…”

    “The Port Authority had made several attempts over the years to get the permits required to demolish the entire site but were always refused because of the “asbestos problem” and the serious danger that “asbestos” would cause to the local community should the buildings be “demolished” in the conventional manner. … Now here’s the interesting clause to the 99 year lease that was “‘turning Silverstein on”; although Silverstein was not permitted to redevelop the site, HE DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO REBUILD THE STRUCTURES SHOULD THEY BE DESTROYED.”

    http://www.infowars.com/the-great-911-insurance-bonanza/

    The second trial resulted in a verdict on December 6, 2004, that 9 insurers were subject to the “two occurrences” interpretation and, therefore, liable for a maximum of double the face value of those particular policies ($2.2 billion).[24] The total potential payout, therefore, was capped at $4.577 billion for buildings 1, 2, 4, and 5.[25] An appraisal followed to determine the value of the insured loss.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein

  1568. Albury Smith on

    Gage’s bunk is bizarre and absurd, not the laws of of physics, and the 9/11 Commission Report didn’t address the causes of the WTC collapses, as you’d know if you ever bothered to read it. It’s obvious that you haven’t read the NIST reports either, or you might possibly understand that the melting of steel is not part of any of their collapse hypotheses.
    Gage is not a brave man; he’s a profiteering charlatan and/or complete incompetent, which is why you and my other attacker here have avoided addressing anything I wrote in my original post.

  1569. Albury Smith on

    re: nyccan.org/ and buildingwhat.org/
    To Whom it May Concern:
    If you need to mount a campaign to inform NYC council members and others of the fact that WTC 7 collapsed almost 7 hours after the North Tower came down on 9/11, then what was the reason for its alleged controlled demolition in the first place? Did the US government need an additional building collapse that day that took no lives, well after both towers, WTCs 3, 4, 5, and 6, four airliners, and part of the Pentagon had already been destroyed or badly damaged, and nearly 3000 innocent people had been violently murdered, to get its almost unanimous congressional resolution to go to war in Afghanistan where al Qaeda was headquartered and where President Clinton sent Tomahawk missiles in response to their previous coordinated and deadly suicide operations against two US embassies in Africa in 1998?
    How on earth do you “bring justice” to Mr. McIlvaine’s remarkable and beloved son Robert G. by libeling more than 210 NIST experts, Larry Silverstein, and countless others with absurd claims based on junk science by profiteering charlatans like Richard Gage and his “engineers,” and by harassing NYC council members for a new investigation when you obviously haven’t even bothered to read NCSTAR 1A, which is the product of a thorough and very competent investigation by people with real science and engineering credentials? Why do you urge people to “ask OFFICIALS to investigate Building 7,” when at least 125 of the scientists and engineers involved in the NIST investigation of WTC 7 were CIVILIANS from academia and private industry?
    Robert wasn’t even in WTC 7 when Muhammad Atta flew the hijacked Boeing 767 into WTC 1 ten stories below him on the morning of 9/11/01, and when he was suddenly and unexpectedly doomed to death along with everyone else in his group and everyone above the 92nd floor, nearly nine hours before the late afternoon collapse of WTC 7. The FDNY feared that it would eventually collapse, which is why they abandoned any effort to fight the fires and pulled everyone back a safe distance, preventing more “terrible loss of life,” as WTC 7’s owner later related in a PBS interview.
    Robert’s death was a tragic loss, and my profound sympathy for Mr. McIlvaine is hard to put into words, but I’d like you and anyone else who’s thinking of signing your petition to answer the following questions first, since you’ve fallen prey to the manipulative liars of the 9/11 “truth movement” and think Larry Silverstein destroyed his own property or knew about it:
    -Why would Larry Silverstein have publicly admitted even to knowing that there were planted explosives in WTC 7 in the first place?
    -What was Silverstein Properties’ and the FDNY’s motive for blowing up a perfectly good, 14 year-old building, losing hundreds of millions of dollars in cash flow from it for nine years and counting, spending ~$700 million, or most of the $861 million insurance settlement, on the replacement of it, and paying ~$500 million back to lenders?
    (note: it was built in 1986-1987, at least 15 years after asbestos was written out of all building codes, and it had no asbestos in its SFRM or elsewhere. There was some on the first 38 floors of the North Tower, most of which had been abated during various tenant fit-outs well before he won the lease by default when Vornado’s deal with the PA fell though, but none in the South Tower, which was built after the code change went into effect)

    -Why would any insurance company have paid him a dime instead of the $4.68 BILLION total he received if he publicly admitted to foreknowledge of or complicity in the alleged secret demolition of his property, but especially those based in Copenhagen, Zurich (2 of them), and London? They all contested his claim of two occurrences based on two separate plane crashes, and he won in court in a few instances based on individual contract wording, but there was never any question relating to the causes of any WTC collapse.

    -How did he or the FDNY know that flaming debris from a much taller collapsing hi-rise across the street would hit WTC 7, start multi-story fires in it, and break the water main to it, disabling the sprinklers and providing a cover story for the alleged controlled demolition?

    -If the explosives were pre-planted, which would have taken weeks or even months in a vacant building and have been completely impossible to do secretly in an occupied one, and Barry Jennings heard some of them go off around 10 AM, why was there any discussion at all in mid-afternoon about whether or not to demolish WTC 7 with the other apparently fireproof explosives allegedly planted a few stories higher?

    -Do controlled demolitions take seven or eight hours to collapse a building?

    -Do they leave no severed columns with copper residue on the ends, or any other evidence in the debris?

    -Do they leave ~12 stories on one corner standing?

    -Is the FDNY in the controlled demolition business? What other buildings, on fire or not, have they demolished before or since 9/11?

    -Please link me to a C/D contractor’s web site, and show me the use of “pull” or “pull it” to refer to building demolition using explosives, not one in which cables are used to pull an already damaged building over, as was done with WTC 6.

    -How does a “terrible loss of life” in the WTC towers affect a later decision to demolish a nearby building with no one in it?

    -A number of FDNY personnel were inside WTC 7 prior to the pullback order, presumably at risk from the alleged explosives, and most of the 343 FDNY fatalities resulted from the tower collapses, so why are there only a few FDNY in the 9/11 “truth movement”? You can count the number in this “truth” organization right here: firefightersfor911truth.org/?page_id=469 Are they simply not as astute as you are, or don’t they care what killed so many of their colleagues?

    -There was a pre-existing ConEd substation at the Vesey Street WTC 7 site in 1986, and the building was designed to straddle it, requiring some of the extremely long ~45′ girder and ~52′ beam spans inside that contributed to the 9/11 collapse. It was powered up and in full use on 9/11/01, and the demolition of a 200,000 ton, 47-story building directly on top of it very likely destroyed it completely. Do you know whether ConEd’s insurers just absorbed the loss of tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure damage and restoration and then subrogated Industrial Risk Insurers, since Larry Silverstein’s firm was still the responsible party, especially if he deliberately caused the damage?

    You are not honoring the memory of Mr. McIlvaine’s highly successful and accomplished young son or any of the other victims of the 9/11 al Qaeda attacks on the WTC towers by demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of the events that occurred that day, and by falsely implicating people who were totally uninvolved in the planning or execution of the Planes Operation, as 9/11 was known to the al Qaeda terrorists behind it.

    Sincere best wishes,

    Albury

  1570. NavyNamVet on

    I’ve seen these exact comments by you before, defending the 9/11 Commission’s fairy tale. I am a Mechanical Engineer. Question; since when are the laws of Physics bizarre and absurd? Kerosene cannot melt large steel beams, much less exactly at the same time for a precise demolition event. I have read all the facts and evidence several times. Our government is lying again to keep the wars going and most sane people know this. Richard Gage is a very brave man to stand up the the US govenment or whomever is really in charge. He will probably have a freak accident and be killed some day soon. Another unfortunate coincidence, like the many other deaths of eye witnesses and truth seekers of 9/11. How do you sleep at night, knowing what you preach is BS?

  1571. DML on

    2 major reasons for the need to destroy – instead of just hit – WTC 1, 2 and 7:

    1: Cover up massive fraud:

    [WTC 7] contained offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron’s), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank’s Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions. [Online Journal]
    The SEC has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed [by the collapse of WTC 7]. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency’s major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. …”Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive,” said Max Berger of New York’s Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. “This is a disaster for these cases.” [New York Lawyer]

    Click for full sized image
    Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center, one of the buildings that collapsed in the aftermath of the attack. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack. [TheStreet]

    Inside [WTC 7 was] the US Secret Service’s largest field office with more than 200 employees. …”All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building,” according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran. [TechTV]

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/cutter.html

    Large numbers of case files for ongoing investigations by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) were reportedly destroyed in the collapse. The Los Angeles Times reported that “substantial files were destroyed” for 3000 to 4000 of the SEC’s cases. The EEOC reported that documents for 45 active cases were destroyed. 3 Before the attack, SEC investigations of corporate fraud by companies such as Enron and Worldcom were the subject of many news reports — reports that virtually vanished in the wake of the attack.

    http://911review.com/attack/wtc/b7.html

    2: Insurance money AND cheaply destroying asbestos-laden buildings too expensive to destroy any other way:

    A question arises from the obvious demolition of WTC 7: Why destroy such a valuable piece of real estate?

    We know that WTC7’s developer and lease-holder, Silverstein Properties, and WTC7’s mortgage-holders, the Blackstone Group, Banc of America Securities, and General Motors Acceptance Corporation, received a Court-awarded amount of $861 million dollars from Industrial Risk Insurers in February 2002. We know that about $386 million had been invested in WTC7 before its destruction. The Court-award meant that Silverstein Properties and the mortgage-holders would share in about $475 million of profit. [8]

    Silverstein Properties is headed by Larry Silverstein, a large contributor to Democrat and Republican office-holders. Silverstein Properties became the primary owner of the WTC Twin Towers less than two months before 9/11/01 (Westfield Malls was Silverstein Properties’ minority-partner). Buying from the New York Port Authority, Silverstein Properties invested only $15 million toward a total purchase-price of $3.2 billion for a 99-year lease on holdings worth an estimated $8 billion. The low-rise office buildings WTC 4, 5, and 6, and 400,000 square feet of retail space were included with the Twin Towers in this deal. Silverstein Properties immediately took out extensive insurance policies on its new holdings.

    One clause in Silverstein Properties’ insurance policies for the new WTC holdings soon proved instrumental. Quoting the British Financial Times of September 14, 2001, the American Reporter wrote that ‘ the lease has an all-important escape clause: If the buildings are struck by “an act of terrorism”, the new owners’ obligations under the lease are void. As a result, the new owners are not required to make any payments under their lease, but they will be able to collect on the loss of the buildings that collapsed or were otherwise destroyed and damaged in the attacks. ’ [9] Silverstein Properties is still contesting the amount of pay-out due for destruction of the Twin Towers—$3.55 billion for one ‘occurrence’ or $7.1 billion for two ‘occurrences’. The “terrorism” clause in his lease has given Larry Silverstein leverage in negotiating his new deal for the site. [10]
    8. ‘Rebuilding Begins for 7 WTC Despite Unanswered Questions’, Peter Grant, Wall Street Journal, July 10, 2002, http://homes.wsj.com/columnists_com/bricks/20020710-bricks.html .
    9. ‘No Fraud, but Huge Profits Seen in World Trade Center Attacks’, Joe Shea, The American Reporter, August 1, 2004, reprinting piece from September 2001, http://www.american-reporter.com/2,421W/1494.html .

    http://911review.com/attack/wtc/b7.html

    Silverstein Makes a Huge
    Profit off of the 9/11 Attacks

    Six months before the 9/11 attacks the World Trade Center was “privatized” by being leased to a private sector developer. The lease was purchased by the Silverstein Group for $3.2 billion. “This is a dream come true,” Larry Silverstein said. “We will be in control of a prized asset, and we will seek to develop its potential, raising it to new heights.”

    But the World Trade Towers were not the real estate plum we are led to believe.
    From an economic standpoint, the trade center — subsidized since its inception — has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the rough-and-tumble real estate marketplace. [BusinessWeek]

    How could Silverstein Group have been ignorant of this?

    Also, the towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built.
    It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings. [Arctic Beacon]

    Other New York developers had been driven into bankruptcy by the costly mandated renovations, and $200 million represented an entire year’s worth of revenues from the World Trade Towers.

    The perfect collapse of the twin towers changed the picture.

    Under a pending agreement, a developer and his investors will get back most of the down payment that they made to lease the World Trade Center just six weeks before a terrorist attack destroyed the twin towers. Developer Larry Silverstein and investors Lloyd Goldman and Joseph Cayre are nearing a deal that would give them about $98 million of their original investment of $124 million, The New York Times reported Saturday. [MontereyHerald 11/22/2003]

    Instead of renovation, Silverstein is rebuilding, funded by the insurance coverage on the property which ‘fortuitously’ covered acts of terrorism. Even better, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, based on the two, in Silverstein’s view, separate attacks. The total potential payout is $7.1 billion, more than enough to build a fabulous new complex and leave a hefty profit for the Silverstein Group, including Larry Silverstein himself.

    As reported in The Washington Post, the insurance company, Swiss Re, has gone to court to argue that the 9/11 disaster was only one attack, not two and that therefore the insurance payout should be limited to $3.55 billion, still enough to rebuild the complex.

    Update: WTC Leaseholder May Collect Up To $4.6B

    A federal jury on Monday ruled that the assault on the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center was in fact two occurrences for insurance purposes. The finding in U.S. District Court in Manhattan means leaseholder Larry Silverstein may collect up to $4.6 billion, according to reports. [Forbes.com 12/06/04]

    The result of court ruling: Silverstein makes a huge profit off of the 9/11 attacks.

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/silverstein.html

  1572. Anonymous on

    Oh, of course, the ticket guys were in on the scheme too. Funny how none of them seem to be living in mansions and they sure haven’t been seen in any mosques, so I’m guessing that their only part in the “conspiracy” was being complete idiots and letting crazy ass Arabs onto planes full of Americans. What if one of those ticket guys had actually flagged the Arabs for a REAL security check? The whole conspiracy would have been screwed up, wouldn’t it DML? That was quite an oversight by the US government, not to have replaced the ticket guys with CIA agents to make sure Atta and his crazy buddy actually made it through check-in. And if they WERE in on it, why the hell would they agree to be interviewed by the History Channel? They would have been executed right after the attack to keep them quiet. The only reasonable conclusion is that they were real ticket guys, incompetent ones like they had plenty of in those days. THEY are responsible for letting the scheme succeed.

  1573. Anonymous on

    How was it an “inside job” when we know with utter certainty that those Muslims checked onto the planes and then flew them into the towers and Pentagon? Why would they need an inside job for that? The ticket guys who checked them in were interviewed in a 9/11 anniversary program on the History Channel. The guy with Atta was dancing around with a big smirk on his face waving his passport around like the madman he obviously was. The ticket guy was suspicious right then and there but he let him through anyway. THAT is why 9/11 happened. Now, if DML wants to credit the Americans with carrying out an obvious Islamic terrorist act, he’s welcome to do so. Then he can bear the same title as Jesse Ventura, and I don’t mean ex- Governor. Who cares about the technical reasons behind why the building completely collapsed? Would it have been less reason for Bush to attack an unrelated country if only the top part of the building had been destroyed? I think that probably would have sufficed. Why then go to all the trouble to do a very suspicious complete demolition? Utterly pointless.

  1574. Anonymous on

    First off, I believe what really causes WAR is the fact that WOMEN are over half the population and own LESS THAN ONE PERCENT of land worldwide.

    Men keep WAR GOING, cause this keeps moms and babies scared.

    This is a BOTTOM LINE thing. TAKE a GOOD LOOK.

    MORE WOMEN dead from AIDS than MEN from WAR 1984 – 2010 RIP

    It’s the biggest and longest lasting war….ONLY ME the MAN owns it all.

    There need to be IRON-CLAD child raising laws, and females getting equal
    share of all inheritance.

    Peace and planting

  1575. DML on

    Albury Smith has a reputation for debunking 9/11 myths:

    “If you Google Albury Smith 9/11 you will see an interesting pattern of postings. Albury is a very ambitious poster, with, at the least, an idée fixe. A lot of us who pay attention to 9/11 have our own ideas on his motivation.

    By the way, it is pointless to attempt to counter his disinformation with fact if you are hoping to persuade him of anything – many scores have tried. However, you may wish to alert other readers to his vacuous views. I expect him to come back and respond on this on this, if he is still running true to form. I won’t bother with a reply, I have better things to do.”

    “Some more of “Agent Alburry Smith” efforts all over the internet. Going hard at proving himself to be the most incompetent shill the world has known.

    http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/bush-court-dismisses-911-suit-against-bush-officials-orders-sanctions/
    http://www.disinfo.com/2011/04/richard-gage-explains-911-truth-on-fox-2-detroit/
    http://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/dump-%E2%80%98irrelevant%E2%80%99-pentagon-research-on-911-cit-opponents/
    http://nhtruth.blogspot.com/2010/08/professional-911-debunker-and-paid.html
    http://www.opednews.com/Diary/Media-Matters-Catalogues-G-by-Better-World-Order-081207-463.html
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/03/a-little-known-fact-about-the-911-planes/
    http://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/10-ways-i-got-sucked-into-buying-the-911-cover-story/
    http://homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com/2010/02/mr-larry-pull-it-silversteindid-you.html
    http://zelikow.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/norwegian-state-television-presents-911-truth/#comment-102
    http://truthandshadows.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/is-science-being-used-to-reveal-the-truth-about-911-or-help-conceal-it/
    http://www.darkpolitricks.com/2011/06/9-11-sceptics-versus-logic-reason-and-scientific-principles/
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Unanswered-9-11-Miracles-a-by-Allen-L-Roland-090123-116.html
    http://letsrollforums.com/major-9-11-truth-t20779p4.html
    http://nhtruth.blogspot.com/2010/08/professional-911-debunker-and-paid.html

    For years, since 2008 at least, time after time he keeps losing, but he keeps on trying! Awww, Bless! :)”

    http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/7901-why-9-11-has-won.html

    It seems like he has an endless amount of time to make his views on 9/11 known:

    http://www.bdonline.co.uk/my-comments?uc=2113897&PageNo=10&SortOrder=dateadded&PageSize=10#comments

    Fortunately, many have responded to his assertions … here are some of the responses that Albury has failed to reply to:

    Albury regarding NIST: “They also never denied the existence of molten metal, and only stated that no STEEL melted to cause a collapse.”

    NIST regarding NIST: “I know of absolutely
    nobody, no eyewitness who has said so, nobody
    who produced it (molten metal)…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lihj-Kz9wjY

    http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/7901-why-9-11-has-won.html

    “NIST states that “differential thermal expansion occurred between the steel floor beams and concrete slab when the composite floor was subjected to fire.” The composite floor is the steel beams made composite with the floor slab by means of the shear studs. They claim that the differential thermal expansion caused the steel to expand and move over the concrete until the shear studs broke. Even though NIST itself acknowledges, and I again quote from the official report, “steel and concrete have similar coefficients of thermal expansion.”

    To prove their point, they fed their variables into their computer model to demonstrate how WTC 7 would have reacted to its fires. So, what did NIST feed into its computer that caused it to say that the steel would have expanded so much more than the concrete slab that the 2′-0″ o.c., 3/4” shear studs began failing at ~300 F?
    NIST said (ie admitted) that it told the computer that the steel beams had been heated; but the concrete floor slab had not. To again quote NIST, “No thermal expansion or material degradation was considered for the concrete slab, as the slab was not heated in this analysis.”

    I am not arguing that the official report is false. Quite the contrary. I am in fact quoting it. But in the official story NIST admits, or at least states, that they fudged the data to support their story.”

    http://www.disinfo.com/2011/04/richard-gage-explains-911-truth-on-fox-2-detroit/

    Some videos that Mr. Smith has failed to respond to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHo5hNCvLb4&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l183LaNay0A

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAp8eCEqNA

    http://wn.com/Richard_Gage

    http://www.disinfo.com/2010/08/coast-to-coast-am-911-debate-with-richard-gage-and-dave-thomas/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKFiGfW6aGY&feature=player_embedded#!

    http://www.disinfo.com/2010/08/media-fail-c-span-tries-and-fails-to-cover-up-the-facts-of-911/

    http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/truth-has-no-expiration-date-richard-gage-and-luke-rudkowski/

  1576. David on

    Thanks for all your years of service to truth and cannabis, DML. Amerikans don’t know about the capitalist reasons that the US wanted to invade and occupy Iraq and Afghanistan, so they don’t see how 9-11 fit into those existing agendas. They don’t know that bin Laden was trained by the US. A former US Senator was on Democracy Now saying that the official story about 9-11 is bullshit. Most people- other than mental midgets and pro-American sheep- can see that 19 Saudis with bolt cutters could not have done this without inside help. It isn’t about whether metal melts or whether a plane hits the Pentagon and vaporizes. It’s a whole body of evidence showing that 9-11 was known ahead of time by the Bush administration and allowed to happen as a pretext for the murderous wars, and death of US civil liberties, that soon followed. God forgive America.

  1577. merry jon on

    911 was an inside job to launch imperial wars of aggression for oil and pipeline routes. clearly the towers that fell on 911 (3 of them, one not touched by an aiplane) were controlled demolitions and the jets themselves remotely controlled. ever wonder why there are never any airline hijackings anymore?? the pentagon was hit by a bunker busting missile, probably tipped with a depleted uranium nose. there was virtually no plane debris in pennsylvania, just a hole in the ground at the site of the crash.

    and tonight we have dick cheney in town to promote his book!

  1578. Anonymous on

    I remember when the 911 thing was just going down, the business woman next door ran in freaking out that it’s going to be ww3! I don’t think so is what I told her, it’s just the US making there way so where to get some thing. What what to better a show than to set the stage at home.
    Anyways – facts are this, the police are becoming more like there own weather system. It’s hard enough to get good greens without getting busted, or your favorite green thumb having issues. But apparently planes can be hijacked easily – what a joke. This whole thing of inventing jobs out of fear is just so old and stupid…

  1579. Anonymous on

    GUESS you forgot NATIVES EXISTED
    before whites in the western hemisphere *1491…

    forget bblacks slavery? from white europeans or in denial…

    galileo is real…

  1580. Albury Smith on

    I think it’s time to investigate some of the bizarre and absurd claims made by Richard Gage, not the three WTC hi-rise collapses on 9/11, since they’ve already been thoroughly investigated by much more qualified, competent, and honest people. The NIST scientists and engineers were only able to time the top 18 stories, or 242′, of the collapse of WTC 7’s facade, and determined that it took 5.4 seconds, yet Gage and others in the 9/11 “truth movement” claim that the entire 610′ collapse only took ~6.5 seconds. Did the other 368′ fall in just over 1 second? How is he even able to give us a time to the nearest 1/10 of a second for the entire collapse when NIST couldn’t because buildings in the foreground blocked the view of video cameras?
    How can he claim that the towers nearly free fell when the loose, airborne debris from their upper stories was obviously falling much faster than the collapse zones, and began hitting the ground while at least 40 stories in each one were still intact? The North Tower was only down to the height of WTC 7 when debris from the upper stories first hit the ground. Was g miraculously increased on 9/11? They fell in ~15 and ~22 seconds respectively, nowhere near the ~9.25 seconds that free fall would have taken:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RKOwens4#p/u/40/qLShZOvxVe4

    yet he begins every presentation with his near free-fall claim. He’s also claimed that the dust clouds from the collapses were “pyroclastic,” but there are no reports of anyone’s skin being instantly peeled off, and he’s claimed that the fires in WTC 7 were minor, totally contradicting these NYC eyewitnesses:

    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofwtc7fires
    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/accountsofwtc7damage
    http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

    How could his claim that 400,000 yards of concrete were turned to fine powder be true, when there was less than 100,000 yards of concrete above grade in both towers combined? Does he know how to turn 400,000 yards of concrete to fine powder with explosives without leveling NYC?
    Has he ever seen a controlled demolition that left molten metal in the debris for months? Has he ever seen one that didn’t leave even one explosively-cut column in the debris? Since he claims that explosives were planted in the core columns to start the collapses, and that it was done from elevator shafts, has he even looked a floor plan of the cores above the 78th floor sky lobby? There were only 6 regular elevators above there, plus a freight and 2 express elevators, and they were only near 6 of the 47 core columns. Several of those were in the paths of the planes, and the perimeter columns collapsed first, so he’s not even making sense, especially considering the fact that 30 or more stories of core framing stood 15-25 seconds after each tower’s main collapse was over.
    We should investigate the nonsense coming from Richard Gage, as well as his “engineers.”

    http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3834688&postcount=12

  1581. Anonymous on

    I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the People.
    Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/gf3
    Prisoners being held for the peaceful, non-violent possession, sale, transport or cultivation of cannabis hemp must be released immediately. Money and property seized must be returned. Criminal records must be wiped clean, amnesty granted and some sort of reparations paid for time served. These cannabis prisoners are the real victims of this monstrous crime against humanity called the “War on Drugs.”
    We the People allows anyone to create and sign petitions asking the Obama
    Administration to take action on a range of issues. If a petition gets
    enough support, the Obama Administration will issue an official response.